Baptist Confession opposed to Arminian View

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by King James Bond, Aug 18, 2005.

  1. King James Bond

    King James Bond
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    Arminians love to stab at John Calvin making him sound as some sort of misguided outlaw on theology.

    The London Baptist Confession of Faith is also not in line with the Arminian view.

    Those that hold the "free-will brought me to God" doctrine are opposed to basic, sound, Baptist fundemental principles found in Scripture.

    The London Baptist Confession of 1689 says;

    By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.

    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

    As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

    ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

    May God grant repentance!

    Regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  2. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,055
    Likes Received:
    36
    Except for the issue of baptism, it is my understanding that the London Confession of Faith is very similar to the Westminster Confession.

    Does anyone here know of any other major disagreements between the two?
     
  3. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,429
    Likes Received:
    72
    General Baptists never accepted this confession. What's your point?
     
  4. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is the London Baptist Confession the inerrant Word of God or something? Who cares what it says. I put zilch into the writing of men unless it squares with God's Word, and this doesn't. You can put verses below anything you type, and it doesn't mean those verses support the writing. The JW's and mormons do the same thing with their publications.
     
  5. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    What's a General Baptist?

    What's a JW?

    What's a Mormon?

    Where is the misunderstanding with you guys that when God said in His inerrant word, that

    “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” Ephesians 2:1

    What is the tense of this statement? Who was quickened? Who was dead in their trespasses and sins?

    and what of vs. 5?

    Eph 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) {by...: or, by whose grace}

    What is the tense here?
    Who were dead in sins?

    Who are we?

    Who are we quickened together with? note: together with...

    How are we saved? Faith? hearing? acting? Promising? Vowing?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    102
    The London Baptist Confession is word-for-word the same in most cases; an exception, as you have noted, is in the article on baptism; the London Confession also omits a section of the Westminister Confession on Liberty of Conscience that is at odds with traditional Baptist belief about the power of the state to regulate religious opinion.
     
  7. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear rsr,
    Thanks for bringing us back on topic.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    102
    If anyone is interested, the General Baptists' Standard Confession is available at:

    http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/tsc.htm

    The confession is also more straightforward about religious liberty than the London Confession, which simply omits a section of the Presbyterian confession.

     
  9. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    102
    Sorry, Bro. Dallas, but I seem to have digressed.

    However ...

    The English Baptists were at odds on soteriology from early on, though it would be a mistake to consider the Generals thorough Arminians.

    From the Standard Confession:

    "That God is not willing that any should Perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Pet. 3. 9. and the knowledge of the truth, that they might be saved, 1 Tim. 2. 4. For which end Christ hath commanded, that the Gospel (to wit, the glad tidings of remission of sins) should be preached to every creature, Mark 16. 15. So that no man shall eternally suffer in Hell (that is, the second death) for want of a Christ that dyed for them, but as the Scripture saith, for denying the Lord that bought them, 2 Pet. 2. 1. or because they believe not in the name of the only begotten Son of God, John 3. 18. Unbelief therefore being the cause why the just and righteous God, will condemn the children of men; it follows against all contradiction, that all men at one time or other, are put into such a capacity, as that (through the grace of God) they may be eternally saved, John 1. 7. Acts 17. 30. Mark 6. 6. Heb. 3. 10, 18, 19. 1 John 5. 10. John 3. 17.

    ... That such who are true Believers, even Branches in Christ the Vine, (and that in his account, whom he exhorts to a bide in him, John 15. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.) or such who have charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of Faith unfeigned, 1 Tim. 1. 5. may nevertheless for want of watchfulness, swerve and I turn aside from the same, vers. 6, 7. and become as withered Branches, cast into the fire and burned, John. 15. 6. But such who add unto their Faith Virtue, and unto Virtue Knowledge, and unto Knowledge Temperance, &c. 2 Pet. 1 5, 6, 7. such shall never fall, vers. 8, 9, 10. ‘tis impossible for all the false Christ’s, and false Prophets, that are, and are to come, to deceive such, for they are kept by the power of God, through Faith unto Salvation, 1 Pet. 1. 5."

    ...
     
  10. King James Bond

    King James Bond
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    The point I was trying to touch on was about the truth of Sovereign election of people to salvation.

    I am saying there have been many that have PROTESTED against such a lie as the free-will of men. John Calvin is not the only one.

    "[God] who has saved us , and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity"

    That verse speaks AGAINST free-will and in accord with His will.

    Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth , so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

    He brought us forth to what? Him!

    1 Cor 4:7 What makes you better than anyone else? What do you have that God hasn't given you? And if all you have is from God, why boast as though you have accomplished something on your own?

    All of mankind is fallen. Men have no free-will but rather a fallen will. Men by nature are at enmity with God. Men have an active hatred and rejection of a sovereign God. It takes the power of God to make even the elect willing!

    Arthur Pink says;

    We commenced our addresses in Australia by saying, “I am going to speak tonight on one of the most hated doctrines of the Bible, namely, that of God’s sovereign election.”

    Since then we have encircled this globe, and come into more or less close contact with thousands of people belonging to many denominations, and thousands more of professing Christians attached to none, and today the only change we would make in that statement is, that while the truth of eternal punishment is the one most objectionable to non-professors, that of God’s sovereign election is the truth most loathed and reviled by the majority of those claiming to be believers.

    Let it be plainly announced that salvation originated not in the will of man, but in the will of God (see John 1:13; Romans 9:16), that were it not so none would or could be saved—for as the result of the fall man has lost all desire and will unto that which is good (John 5:40; Romans 3:11)—and that even the elect themselves have to be made willing (Psalm 110:3), and loud will be the cries of indignation raised against such teaching.

    It is at this point the issue is drawn. Merit-mongers will not allow the supremacy of the divine will and the impotency unto good of the human will, consequently they who are the most bitter in denouncing election by the sovereign pleasure of God, are the warmest in crying up the freewill of fallen man.

    In the decrees of the council of Trent—wherein the Papacy definitely defined her position on the leading points raised by the Reformers, and which Rome has never rescinded—occurs the following:

    “If any one should affirm that since the fall of Adam man’s free will is lost, let him be accursed.”

    It was for their faithful adherence to the truth of election, with all that it involves, that Bradford and hundreds of others were burned at the stake by the agents of the pope.

    Unspeakably sad is it to see so many professing Protestants agree with the mother of harlots in this fundamental error.

    But whatever aversion men may now have to this blessed truth, they will be compelled to hear it in the last day, hear it as the voice of final, unalterable, and eternal decision.

    When death and hades, the sea and dry land, shall give up the dead, then shall the Book of Life—the register in which was recorded from before the foundation of the world the whole election of grace—be opened in the presence of angels and demons, in the presence of the saved and of the lost, and that voice shall sound to the highest arches of Heaven, to the lowest depths of hell, to the uttermost bound of the universe.

    Regards, KJB,
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Lumpkin in Baptist Confesssions of Faith discusses the differences.
     
  12. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Brethren,
    Please note the introduction below taken from the London Confession of Faith of 1689. particularly note the statement in bold. The bold is my own emphasis for your convenience. The original document I am reading (not the original, but a copy) supplied the parenthesis.

    bro. Dallas Eaton

     
  13. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  14. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    I bet Calvin rolled over

    ... but, at least we were not Arminian ... although we were Arminian enough to be hung and drowned (re-baptized, or permanently baptized into glory)
     
  15. King James Bond

    King James Bond
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    Frogman,

    Those posts you post are crystal clear!

    I am in substantial agreement with the WCF and the LCF.

    I have struggled with the concept of Adam having free-will.

    It is kind of hard to prove that he had a free-will. All evidence that we have shows that he sinned.

    I may be convinced that Adam was born in a state of innocence.....but all evidence shows that he willingly sinned.

    I am convinced that God had determined from eternity past that Adam would sin.....and there was not a remote chance he would not have sinned.

    My premise for my struggle against that point in LCF and WCF goes as follows;

    God at a point in time knew all things that would take place before He made anything at all.

    God is the One that made Adam. Adam was designed by God with a specific purpose in mind and nothing was left to chance.

    Even the plan and purpose of God to send His own Son into the world was not a probability or possibility but was planned and destined to take place before anything at all was made.

    I find that God certainly made Adam with a will.....but not a free will. I find that Adam was puposely designed by God to willingly sin.

    There was not a remote possibility that anything else would have taken place.

    I am convinced that it was determined by God in His design that Adam was to be created weak enough by nature of his design and designed will......to willingly sin.

    Just something to kick around and ponder.

    God bless! KJB
     

Share This Page

Loading...