Baptist / Lutheran

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by twpaige, Dec 9, 2002.

  1. twpaige

    twpaige
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    Greetings to all! This is my first post and I'm anxious to see what kind of feedback I get. If I'm related to anyone out there (you'll probably be able to figure out my name by looking at my handle), let me know. [​IMG]

    I am in a (probably not unique) situation. I was married approximately 18 years ago to a wonderful woman, who turned out to be a great mother and wife. Praise God! When we were married we had many discussions on religion, she was Lutheran and I was Baptist. I attended her church many times and her pastor preached a good baptist salvation message which I was very happy about. We met with him twice regarding our marriage and future church attendance. He made the suggestion (which I thought made sense at the time), that we continue to be members of the Lutheran church, raise the kids with a good salvation message, let them attend confirmation classes and be confirmed. Then we could move over to a Baptist church and the kids could be baptized.

    At the time this seemed like a very reasonable plan and I jumped at it. (We were going to get married no matter what, it was a shotgun wedding.) We proceeded with the plan and attended the local Lutheran Church, listening to this same pastor preach a gospel message. (My dad always said that our pastor was just a back-sliding Baptist when he attended services with us.) Soon this great Baptist / Lutheran preacher retired and we were left with the real "Lutheran" church. I was miffed to say the least, but the children were still young and I was busy with my career, so I put it on the back burner. The "back-burner" turned out to be one long downward slide that ended with us not attending church at all for about a year.

    Well after 12 years of sitting on the "back-burner" and me being tepid, (I'm sure God would spit me out of his mouth for sure now!), I am on fire for the Lord once again. I have a thirst for scripture that I'd never felt before (even while attending Bible College), and I pray at every turn. I admit that I have been a backslider and I have not been the best role model for my children, but now I want to change that. I have not made any announcements to the family about what I want to do, but my wife knows something is up, she sees me reading scripture and praying, she sees (or hears) me listening to christian radio. She knows that I am once again interested in what God's will is for our lives and that I want to do what He wants. She also knows that I am famous for gaining new interests, getting excited about them, learning them and then slowly move away from my new-found interest until it is sitting on the basement shelf.

    I am asking you for prayers, support and maybe some good old fashioned advice.

    I feel the need to fuel the flames and am throwing logs on the fire as quickly as possible. I just don't want the fire to go out again, I don't want my wife to think this was just another "flash in the pan". I want to do God's will and walk in his ways. Right now I don't believe (in my head) that I could feel more at peace about my own spiritual life, but know in my heart that I can do more.

    Here are the things I feel I need to help me walk the walk, as well as a few questions for you to mull over.

    I need to find some good christian fellowship (specifically a small men's group) in the Marion, Iowa area.

    We need to find a good church in the area (we are currently attending a Lutheran church).

    I need to insist on a transition to a good Bible-Preaching church. I prefer a good "Bible-thumping" Baptist preacher. [​IMG] How can I best do this after eighteen years of attending my wife's preferred church without causing any undue stress?

    I want my wife to be "on-fire" for the the Lord as well, but know she's as luke-warm as I was just two months ago. What's my best route here? I've just been praying for her and trying to set a good example, and never hiding any of my bible study or prayer. I don't want to try to "push" her into it because she'll balk. I want us to be in agreement about this, but know it's the right thing to do. What should I do?

    I have a real hunger for Christian Friends. I've always been a "wall flower" at events, but really feel the need for someone to confide in and draw strength from. I've got a lot to give in a relationship like this, but have not yet found anyone. I've been praying about this for a short time and ask that you pray for me as well. If you have any ideas on this please let me know.

    I am very sorry that I've written what appears to be a novel, but it feels good just to put some of my issues on paper (figuratively). [​IMG]

    Col 3:23

    tw [​IMG] :confused:
     
  2. Chemnitz

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    So tell me, just what is this "real Lutheran" church. Also, what branch did your congregation belong to, ELCA, LCMS, WELS, etc?

    How do you define "baptist salvation"? And what makes that different from "Lutheran salvation"?
     
  3. twpaige

    twpaige
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    Chemnitz,

    ELCA. The original Lutheran preacher that married us preached a salvation message. i.e. Confess your sins, ask for forgiveness, ask Christ into your heart to save you.

    The Lutheran doctrine preaches that you are a Child of God once you have been baptized (as an infant) sprinkling, and that you can lose your salvation. I read this as "you are saved by works and not by grace."

    tw
     
  4. twpaige

    twpaige
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    Chemnitz,

    I just did a lookup on you and discovered that you are a Lutheran. I've also discovered that you've made more than 1000 posts.

    I'm not trying to bash the Lutheran Church, it's just that I don't believe that I go to heaven because I've been baptized as an infant. I believe it's a choice and once the choice has been made it's a done-deal. No backing out, no refunds.

    tw
     
  5. Chemnitz

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    Then obviously you do not understand the doctrine of baptism. I don't have much time right now to go into any great detail in this post, but I will be happy to post more on the topic. I can tell you right now, we do not see baptism as our work.

    I can recommend a few books so that you can do more investigation into the doctrine of Baptism

    A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward Koehler - a good survey of Lutheran Doctrine.

    The Doctrine of Baptism by Edmund Schlink - a pretty good indepth look on the doctrine of Baptism.

    [ December 09, 2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  6. twpaige

    twpaige
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    Chemnitz,

    I'm no expert on it, but would be more than willing to listen to what you have to say. I got my information directly from a Lutheran Pastor when I asked him the direct question "How do I get to heaven?"

    tw [​IMG]
     
  7. Sherrie

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    I was Missouri Synod Lutheran all my young life. Was raised in Lutheran Children Family Services. I was abandoned and placed in there care.

    While they are a good church...I myself found they did not teach me how to be personable with the Lord. Confirmation classes are great. But so is a Bible Study. Grow! Do not stand still.

    Switch. It will do your family good to understand the Bible and the Lord in a whole new way. If not satisfied go back.

    Sherrie
     
  8. Sherrie

    Sherrie
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    Chemnitz

    I was born and raised in St. Louis. Attended Gethsemane Lutheran Church, in Lemay. Took my first communion there. I went to school at Mehlville Jr. and Sr. High.

    Sherrie
     
  9. IlovetheBible

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    I like the way you think. Bible based mind. [​IMG]

    Btw- I'm a former Lutheran turned Baptist for the reason that infant baptism is unscriptural, and would be happy to answer any questions regarding that area.

    In Him,
    Adam
     
  10. twpaige

    twpaige
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    Brother Adam,

    Thanks for the kind words. [​IMG]

    I'm not too up to date on the theology of such matters, but know what I believe and believe that it's right. I (like most men) tend to think in black and white; that's the way I like it. Clear and concise is the way to go!

    I would like some examples of why infant baptism is unscriptural; please include any scripture references if they are available.

    I take the bible literally right now; I know there are figurative passages, but I'm not knowledgable enough to figure those things out right now. I will be one day (God willing), but for now walking the walk and sharing / praying with others is enough for me.

    Prayer is a powerful weapon. Use it! [​IMG]

    Jesus loves me.

    tw
     
  11. Chemnitz

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    I haven't forgotten you. So don't worry.
    I am trying to make the post as comprehensive and as concise as possible, but never fear it will be posted soon. [​IMG]

    Since, you are looking for a better church you may want to give one of these places a try, Bethany, King of Kings, Concordia.
     
  12. IlovetheBible

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    Ditto to what Chemintz said- I have been very busy and haven't had time to write much of anything. I will be getting back to you shortly on those passages.
     
  13. LadyEagle

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    Good....a Lutheran corner! [​IMG]

    Because I have some questions:

    What do Evangelical Lutherans believe? Can you give me some examples? [​IMG]

    Why would they have a statement after the Lord's Prayer during the church service where the pastor says (can't remember exact verbiage) "according to the authority given to me in the Bible, I forgive you from your sins." :confused: Or am I misunderstanding? :confused:
     
  14. twpaige

    twpaige
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    I'm feeling like an instigator! :rolleyes:

    Praise God for this wonderful web-site. (Note for the webmaster - posts should be listed in reverse chronological order, that way you can see the latest post without having to scroll all the way through the old ones. Just a thought.)

    Lutheran's IMHO are beginning to migrate towards the Catholic church in many ways. There are many indications that this is happening such as changes made to services (specifically for me was when they recite the following)

    They changed "the holy christian church" to "the holy catholic church" while I was a member. That just never really felt right to me.

    Then there was an article in the paper regarding an agreement between the Catholic and Lutheran churches.

    My source is
    here.

    I am not as educated on these matters as I wish I was, but I believe the evidence is overwhelming.

    God's blessings to all.

    tw

    [ December 11, 2002, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: twpaige ]
     
  15. Chemnitz

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    Just the ELCA, of course, they are signing documents with just about anybody who can carry a pen no matter how heterodox or heretical the teachings of the church body.

    The LCMS, WELS, and ELS have all published works trashing the Joint Decleration.

    Thats how the word translates, catholic little "c" has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic church. It just simply means universal.
     
  16. twpaige

    twpaige
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    Chemnitz,

    Thanks for the clarification on which Lutheran churches are adopting this agreement. I had no idea.

    As for the word "catholic" being in the Apostle's Creed, I still don't understand why it was changed. The flavor of the word "catholic" rather than "christian" just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I would actually find myself reciting the creed and then just stopping and being quiet while that line was recited in church. I felt like a heretic and some people even noticed, they never said anything, but you could tell they weren't too happy about it; especially since I was on the council.

    In Him,

    tw
     
  17. Chemnitz

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    I do believe you are refering to the confession and absolution, which traditionally occurs at the beginning of the service and not after the Lord's Prayer.

    The Wording does change but this is a pretty typical version of the absolution
    "Upon this your confession, I, as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God to all of you, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" LW DS 1

    This does not reflect a belief similar to the rcc, because we do not believe that only a pastor can forgive sins. Anybody can pronounce absolution.

    It does reflect two things. One, a recognition of human psycology. People tend to trust absolution pronounced by a pastor more than the absolution given by the average lay person. Two, in the Lutheran churches a pastor is called to administer the office of the keys which includes administering the Word and Sacraments to that congregation. Which absolution falls under.

    [ December 11, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  18. LadyEagle

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    Yes, this is probably the part, and not the Lord's Prayer, so thanks for clearing that up.

    But I'm curious why even have this confession..."I forgive you all your sins..." when the Bible clearly says, there is One God and One Mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus? This is what I don't understand, because no man, pastor or not, has the authority to forgive another's sins according to the Bible. Or am I reading more into this than what is intended and wouldn't it be better for this phrase to be stated differently if human absolution is not the meaning?

    Help me out, I'm still confused..... [​IMG]
     
  19. AdoptedDaughter

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    [ December 13, 2002, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: baptistforever ]
     

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