Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Prince of Preachers, Dec 6, 2002.
Where do you believe they came from?
John The Baptist?... Hey is this a trick question? ... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren
From the confluence of English Separatism and Continental Anabaptism.
From the mother ship
Only if you accept alien immersion ...
[ December 11, 2002, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: Daveth ]
When do you believe they started, had they had other names before.
Is this what you are looking for Prince Of Preachers... From Hassells Church History!
Until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century, they were known as Montanists, Tertullianists, Novatians, Donatists, Paulicians, Petrobrusians, Henricians, Arnoldists, Waldenses, Albigenses, United Brethren of Bohemia, and Lollards; many of these were called by the general name of Ana-Baptists (or Re-Baptizers), because they did not acknowledge the scripturalness or validity of infant baptism, and therefore baptized (Paedobaptists said they baptized again) those who joined them on a profession of faith. While these various classes of people differed in minor particulars, and while some of them were in much darkness and error on certain points of truth, they yet held substantially to the same general doctrine and practice—insisting, above all, upon the spirituality of the church of God and her heavenly obligation to walk in humble and loving obedience to all His holy commandments, both in an individual and a church capacity, and not in obedience to the unscriptural traditions and commandments of men. For the last 365 years (since A.D. 1520) they have been called Baptists (for about the first 100 years of this period, also Ana-Baptists), because they baptized (that is, immersed in water, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) all who, upon a credible profession of their repentance towards God and faith in Christ, desired to unite with them in a church capacity. The cardinal tenets of Bible Baptists, being also those held by the apostolic churches, as set forth in the New Testament, and those held, in the main, by the people of God in former times, are:
· The exclusive and supreme authority of the Holy Scriptures;
· The exclusive headship of Christ over His church;
· The three-oneness of God as Father, Son and Spirit; the total depravity of all mankind since the fall of Adam;
· The special and effectual electing love of God the Father, redeeming love of God the Son, and regenerating love of God the Spirit, manifested, in due time, to all the vessels of mercy;
· The baptism of believers, and the partaking of the Lord’s supper by those properly baptized and in gospel order;
· Salvation by grace and faith alone;
· A regenerated and orderly-walking church membership;
· The universal priesthood and brotherhood of believers;
· The divine call and divine qualification and equality of the ministry, who feed and care for the flock of God among them, not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind, not as being lords over God’s heritage, but as ensamples to the flock;
· The independence and yet cordial brotherly association of gospel churches;
· The separation of the church from the world,
· The non-alliance of the former with the latter in any kinds of religious institutions; such corrupting associations being pointedly forbidden in both the Old and New Testament Scriptures (Ex. 12:38 with Num. 11: 4-6; Ex. 34:12-16; Deut. 7:1-11; 2 Chron. 18:1-3 with 19:2; Ezra 9:1-15; Neh. 13:1-3, 23-31; Ps. 26:4,5; 56:35-43; Isa. 8:12; Acts 8:20,21; 2 Cor. 6:14-18); the separation of church and state;
· The liberty of every human being, so far as other people are concerned, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience;
· The resurrection of the bodies both of the just and the unjust;
· The final and general judgment of the world by the Lord Jesus Christ;
· The everlasting blessedness of the righteous, and the everlasting punishment of the wicked... There are all the names and their beliefs... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren
So, when did the Baptists split from the Anabaptists and why?
[ December 11, 2002, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: Daveth ]
Baptists were never Anabaptists in a strict sense since Baptist begginnings date around 1609. The Reformation Anabaptists were the forerunners of Baptists but there are doctrinal differances between Baptists and Anabaptists on such things as communal living, pacificism, serving in poltical office as well as the issue of Arminianism.
The Anabaptists were Arminian in theology as testified by their own statements and confessions. The first generation of Baptists (General) were also Arminian but by the 1630's with the birth of the Particular Baptists, Baptist theology moved toward Calvinism as the Particulars grew and the Generals declined.
Practically all Anabaptists were pacificists and would reject taking a oath of allegiance to any nation or a Christian serving in a political office. This is one of the major differances between the Anabaptists and Baptists. Baptists both the General Baptists and the Particular Baptists were influenced by the Anabaptists and there probably would be no Baptists without the Radical Reformation but the only connection seems to be a spiritual kinship.
A succinct reply, Kiffin.
[ December 10, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
The connection between Baptists and Anabaptists is believer's baptism by immersion. Baptists arose from English Separatism, not from the Anabaptists. The Christology of the Anabaptists was heretical in its teachings of "celestial flesh" and so forth.
It is interesting to note that John Smythe, an early General Baptist, is Roman Catholic in his doctrine of justification (see his confession of faith).
Could you explain more about their belief of the "celestial flesh," as you put it? Where can I get more info on this?
From Kaspar Schwenckfeld (among others), the doctrine that Christ's humanity came from God, not Mary.
Peter C. Erb
On Anabaptist Christology: http://www.mhsc.ca/index.asp?content=http://www.mhsc.ca/encyclopedia/contents/C482ME.html
I think the link between Baptists and Anabaptists on immersion is more tenuous than proven; it's hotly disputed how early the continental Anabaptists -- and English Baptists -- practiced immersion.
More important similarities, to me, are the principles of the priesthood of the believer, rejection of infant baptism and the belief that the state had no right to dictate religious practice.
This does not deny the importance of the Separatist tradition. But I also do not want to deny the influence of other streams of thought, represented by the Anabaptists.
"Anabaptist" theology and practice were all over the board in the 16th century, ranging from spiritualism to rationalism, being commonly used for any group that held to adult baptism. The English Baptists were eager to disassociate themselves from the abuses that occurred on the continent:
Standard Confession, 1660
im not so much looking for answer to when did they start or what other names did they have, i know that. i was looking in an old yellow pages and i realized that 3 baptist churches, that i would have gone to, droped the name baptist. i just wanted to see if people reaized the sacrifice that was made for us to have that bible that you should love dearly, and hold high the name Baptist!
The "celestial flesh" idea was held by only a small minority of Anabaptists but certaintly was not held by the Swiss Brethern or the mainstream Anabaptists. Menno Simmons did teach that Jesus did not receive his body from Mary's flesh but never denied that Jesus had human flesh. Many of the Reformers exploited this and made exaggerated claims against them and many Reformed Baptists try to de emphasize Anabaptist influence on Baptist origins by such flawed history books as A Primer on Baptist History
The Artist formerly known as "Kiffin"
I love "Athanasius." Great creed, solidly to the point. (though a bit wordy -- we're all critics, aren't we?) But why did you you abandon "Kiffin?"
"Waldo", "Kiffin", "Athanasius"??? What's next? I'm still waiting for you to honor your past and call yourself "Bogard" - <grin>