Baptists and the Tongues issue

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by IronWill, Jun 17, 2006.

  1. IronWill

    IronWill
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    Does anybody here think that there will be some sort of breakup in the SBC because of the tongues issue? I know that they've recently begun forcing out Missionaries who've had a "charismatic experience." Will this result in a split of the Southern Baptist Convention? This is even becoming an issue in some IFB churches, and in many Baptist denominations. There are alot of Pentecostal Baptists out there, it's just many choose to remain silent about the fact rather than face ridicule...or ostracization from their friends and family concerning their beliefs. Are we on the verge of seeing a new Baptist convention spring forth, one that accepts the "pentecostal" gifts?
     
  2. Gershom

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    I'm not sure that there will be a breakup or division over this particular issue. What I find interesting is that just in the past year or two, I've heard of Baptists who have had an experience outside of the Baptist box with either tongues or miracles.
     
  3. Trotter

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    I don't see a breakup, but hopefully there will be a crackdown.

    An issue in IFB churches? And what does that have to do with SBC? i don't get the connection.

    For those churches who don't want to be a part of the SBC, they can just be "Baptist".
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    Baptists are not Charismatics. If any Baptists want to practice tongues, etc., they ought to seek out those of like mind elsewhere. There are plenty of places to go, and if they have any integrity about them, they'll go there.

    Wherever these "gifts" have wormed their way into a congregation they have caused bitter division. And where they pop up, false doctrine follows.
     
  5. IronWill

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    Note that I didn't say Charismatics, I said Pentecostals. There is a bit of a difference. Just because one practices the gifts, that doesn't make them a heretic. And just because a congregation practices gifts, it doesn't mean that they contain false doctrine.
     
  6. blackbird

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    I'm with Tom on this one! People always blame the "church fuss" issue on what "color" the carpet should be and which side the piano and organ sit on----etc. etc-----but in all of my SBC life(47 as a human, 18 years as a pastor) I have never been involved in a dispute of that sort---but I have seen more splits---more division---more bitterness derived from--more animosity manifested over the so called "Tongue" movement than any other issue that has ever come up!! And 9 times out of 10---when the Conservative Pastor of the SBC church has his way OVER the whelms of the charasmatic parisheners--those same parisheners who claim to be so full of the love of Christ Jesus will go to all points to make life miserable as they can for the pastor who takes a stand!! I know! I have fought this issue in every church I have ever pastored---and have seen the issue crop up in churches I have been a part of but not in pastoral role!!!

    Bro. David
     
  7. mima

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    Your opinion;

    Blackbird, I would be very interested in your opinion as concerns this "prayer language" quagmire that the Southern Baptist convention seems to be in. After 18 years of pastoring in churches I'm sure you have some insight into the problem. If for any reason you not want to publicly state your views please use my PM to contact me. If you do not know now; let me plainly state that I have a prayer language myself, but please do not be put off by this fact but reveal your knowledge gained in over 18 years in the church about this matter.
     
  8. IronWill

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    I've seen the same happen from Non-Charismatics as well, and it can be just as vicious and nasty. You can't say that it's the Charismatics who are the worst at this. It's a sin problem, and it affects all people.
     
  9. TaterTot

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    I am with Blackbird on this as well. This is our second church as pastor, and the issue has come up both times, alothough not very intensely. There was a church we were part of once that was very near the Pensacola Outpourring at Brownsville Assembly of God. Our church actually had a very ugly split over the issue of manifestations such as tongues and "shaking for the Lord". Those very ones who were so intensely spiritual led the way, and many seeking Christians laid wounded in the aftermath. It was truly a mess.
     
  10. LeBuick

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    What a shame...

    I had some dealings with an AOG pastor as he was explaining gifts as being symbols of your salvation. I kept point out how Paul said, "SOME" have these gifts and he kepts saying the some is the elect. We agreed to disagree in the end.
     
  11. Ben W

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    There already exist two Pentecostal Baptist Denominations, The Pentecostal Freewill Baptist and the Full Gospel Baptists

    http://www.pfwb.org/

    http://www.fullgospel.org/

    Ron Phillips runs a Pentecostal ministry that is affiliated to the Southern Baptist Convention

    http://www.ronphillips.org/

    I dont think there will be a split as such, unless a binding resolution is passed on all churches that they must not practice Spiritual Gifts and expouse Cessationism. If that happened I think many would change their affiliation to other denominations, maybe even to the two Bapticostal groups above?
     
  12. drfuss

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    There are really two issues to consider on the tongues issue in the SBC.

    1. The question of tongues and other "gifts" as a part of the worship service. As far as I can tell, this is not an issue for the SBC. Too many people relate the tongues issue with what they see on television and hear on the radio.

    2. The other issue is the private prayer language. The OP is correct, there are many Baptists who have a private prayer (praise) language. With few exceptions if any, these Baptist are not interested in tongues being exercised in the church service. If they were interested, they would go to one of the many pentecostal churches in their area.

    I don't see why the concern about a christian's private devotions. Are we going to question whether we should be kneeling or sitting during our devotions? Should the church try to dictate the form of our private devotions? Apparently, the SBC IMB thinks so.

    For those who have had problems about tongues in their churches, I wonder what initiated the problems. Was it the minister preaching against tongues or was someone trying to push tongues into the service?

    If there was a layman trying to promote tongues during the service, then that must be dealt with because they are causing dissention. On the other hand, if the issue is initiated by the minister preaching against tongues, then He should expect a reaction since he is criticising a christian's private devotions.

    Why make this a problem and thereby cause dissention within the church?

    What is the problem?

    Please don't respond to this question by giving cessation driven scripture explanations; there are other treads for that, and I have read most of them.
     
    #12 drfuss, Jun 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2006
  13. webdog

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    The problem I have is not the fact that one "experiences" a private prayer language, but from where it is from. I'm adamant that Christ gave us the model of how to pray, and we should stick to that. Anything other than that is abiblical, and should be questioned.
     
  14. Trotter

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    Very good point. I'll have to remember that.
     
  15. Ciela

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    Prior to becoming Baptist, my dad grew up in a Pentecostal family and spoke in tongues in church, their version of it he told me was just gobbley-gook. Yes, just getting up and babbling nothing intelligible or useful. Then, after watching people barking and rolling in the aisles and acting creepy, he high-tailed it out of there--for good.

    I speak in two tongues--English and Russian. My husband's family speaks in the German tongue. People in the Apostles' day were able to understand the Apostles speaking to them in their own language--Cretes, Arabians, Hebrews--they were all able to understand the wonderful works of God being proclaimed in their own tongue--not gobbly gook.

    A tongue should be able to be translated--a verifiable spoken and understood language. When my father preaches in Russia, he uses a translator because Russians in general don't understand English. Biblically, when an unknown tongue is spoken, there needs to be a translator, or the Bible says that person should keep silent. Everything said should be understood and be beneficial to the listeners--decently and in order.

    Ciela
     
    #15 Ciela, Jun 19, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2006
  16. Tom Butler

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    You can rest assured that glossolaliacs and non-tongues folks cannot coexist in a congregation. The tongues folks inevitably develop an elitist attitude (we have the gifts and you don't, so there's something spiritually deficient about you). And the glossolaliacs will eventually complain about not "getting fed." Any pastor who thinks the two sides and get along is naive or just plain weak. He will preside over an escalating conflict that can only be resolved by one side leaving. Or the majority kicking the minority out. Either way, it will tear that congregation apart.
     
  17. Sister Robin

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    Well, that's quite the summation - I like it! :thumbs:

    But as to your first statement.. "from where it is from".
    What happened to me when "it happened to me"?
    It was not demonic, I am quite sure. But neither am I convinced (now) that it was indeed the Holy Spirit.
    So... is it some weird psychological manisfestation of overly emotionally charged worshippers? That also sounds really strange, but I wish someone could explain to me what happened to me (if not the Holy Spirit).
     
  18. webdog

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    It's gotta be one or the other.
     
  19. Sister Robin

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    So you believe I'm not psychotic, just possessed? :)
    If that's the case then, I know who lives in me, and it ain't no devil! :praise:
     
  20. gtbuzzarp

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    I think the whole "tongues" debate amongst Baptist is well illustrated in the fact that the late, great, W A Criswell struggled so much with this issue in his sermons.

    In one he says:
    " Now, what he's talking about is this: That Corinthian church sought after the gifts of speaking in tongues. It set this man apart. He had an ecstasy in his soul. He had a glory in his heart that so filled his life that he couldn't contain it in the Greek language in which he spake, so it became a great overflowing in some other tongue, in some other language that only God could understand."
    W.A. Criswell -The Miraculous Gifts of the Spirit 11/27/1955
    http://www.wacriswell.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Search.Transcripts/sermon/1115.cfm


    But almost 2 months later he says:
    " If we’re having a public service here, and the preacher’s up here talking in German or he’s talking in Afghanistan or if he’s talking in Hebrew, you out there -- most of us -- wouldn’t have any idea what the preacher was talking about. Now, this thing of talking in tongues in the Bible means, apparently, a speaking in languages. But not that gibberish, that unknown language...

    When Simon Peter was preaching to Cornelius in his household while he had spake, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
    And they were astonished because that household of Cornelius, they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Well, was that an unknown gibberish? Well, this is what I think happened there.
    I have read in psychology. And I remember it several times. This is not a little old passing thing, but a -- but a life observation. I read in psychology that any man under great emotional stress, when he speaks out -- he’s speaking out in terror or horror or in terrible fright, or in great ecstasy and indescribable gladness, he will inevitably cry out in his native language.
    He may be a German that’s lived German thirty years, come over here to America and live five years. But if he is overwhelmed by a tremendous emotion, when he cries out, he will not cry out in English, but he’ll cry out in his native language, in German.
    And I think that’s what happened here in the household of Cornelius, you had many who spoke Latin. You had men who spoke Greek. You had men spoke Aramaic. I know those three for certain.
    And then, since he was a soldier and an officer and had slaves from all over the empire, you may have had a Phrygian there, and you may have had a Cappadocian there. And you may have had a Gaul there, and you may have had Cyrenian.
    So what happened was, when the Holy Spirit of God came upon those Gentiles, and they were converted and they were filled with indescribable ecstasy, why, each man when he praised God, when he shouted his gladness, he did it in his native language. "

    W.A Criswell - Men, Women, Speaking In Tongues 1/15/1956
    http://www.wacriswell.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Search.SearchResults/type/topic.cfm


    And yet in another he says:

    " In I Corinthians, Chapter 12, in listing the nine gifts of the Spirit here, the last two are: To another, diverse kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
    Then Chapter 14 is a discussion of this gift of speaking in tongues. In Pentecost, it was an understood language. But in the Corinthians church, it is an ununderstandable language. It is an unknown tongue.
    In the 2nd Verse, Paul says: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue, speaketh not unto men, but unto God. For no man understandeth him. It is an unknown tongue.
    And in Verse 14: For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. It is an unknown tongue.
    Glossolalia, an unknown tongue. I am astonished in many things in the Bible, in the word of God. I am astonished at this. I am amazed at it. I am overwhelmed by it. "

    W.A Criswell - Speaking In Unknown Tongues 7/10/1966
    http://www.wacriswell.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Search.Transcripts/sermon/667.cfm

    Also:
    "What is this gift of the interpretation of tongues? If it is, by the speaking in tongues, one spoke a language that he didn’t understand. It was unknown to him, but a real language, unknown to him. Then, to interpret it by someone who did not know that language would be a double miracle. It would be a miracle for someone to speak a language that he did not know. And it would be a miracle, another one, for someone to interpret a language that he did not know."


    W.A. Criswell - The Interpretation of Tongues 7/17/1966
    http://www.wacriswell.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Search.Transcripts/sermon/364.cfm

    I think tongues have been abused and over-emphasized by Pentacostals and others, but I don't think that proves whether or not they may still exist. I also think Baptists can respectfully disagree on this issue. Just like Criwell appearse to disagree with himself. :)
     

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