Baptists, Contemporary and Charasmatic

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben W, Dec 26, 2004.

  1. Ben W

    Ben W
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    Here is a great Baptist Church that is both Baptist and Charasmatic with Contemporary music and worship. The church is one of the largest in our state and has many new converts, and the number of new people accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour there shows no signs of abating!

    http://www.mvbc.com.au
     
  2. Daniel David

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    There is much reason to question the validity of any so called charismatic institution. They are hardly promoting truth. Hard to believe they are contemporary as well.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Sadly, many people use the "baptist" title that have nothing to do with the distinctives of a true Baptist church.

    Those who would endorse "tongues", for instance, do not hold that the Bible is the ONLY source for faith and practice. Obviously.

    We can't stop liars.
     
  4. Ben W

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    This church has been in the Baptist Union of Churches in South Australia pretty much scince it began! it is indicitive of a number of Baptist Union churches in our state. A number are taking on AOG ministers to either pastor the church or to join the ministry team and the church usually experiences growth!
     
  5. donnA

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    If they were actual Baptists they would not be hiring AOG preachers. And the AOG preachers wouldn't be going ther if they were real Baptists with Baptist teachings. The two belief systems have conflicts, someone is compromising.
     
  6. Ben W

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    Yet they are "Actual Baptists" [​IMG]

    In fact what really is the problem with an AOG minister serving God in a Baptist Church? If he is a born again believer that is o.k?
     
  7. dianetavegia

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    The problem, Ben, is that the AOG and Baptist Distinctives conflict.

    Revelation 3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' "
     
  8. Ben W

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    What are the AOG Distinctives? I have not heard of those before, Yet I can not see how an AOG minister would be in any way comprimised by serving within the Baptist Distinctives?

    Biblical Atonement
    Autonomy of the local church
    Priesthood of the believer
    Two Ordinances
    Individual Soul Liberty
    Saved, Baptised, Church Membership
    Two Offices

    http://www.garbc.org/baptdist.php#whatare
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    I fail to see how these could be construed to be Laodician or spew/vomit worthy. Looks like some proof texting going on to me.

    http://ag.org/top/beliefs/truths_condensed.cfm


    Me neither.
     
  10. DHK

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    This is not a Baptist distinctive. It is far from it. The only baptism of the Spirit that takes place is at the time of salvation, when the believer is baptized into the family of God. This takes place without any emotional experience. It is an act done by God on behalf of the believer. God the Father makes us one of his dear children. He baptizes (immerses) us into his family, and that is all. There is no second blessing as it relates to baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is a false doctrine. Baptism of the Holy Spirit does not follow salvation; rather it takes place at the time of salvation.
    This Charismatic belief, but far from any Baptist distinctive. A true Baptist does not speak in tongues, nor does he believe that it is the evidence of of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Whoever believes in this needs to take a theology course in pneumatology. Again, baptism of the Holy Spirit takes place for every believer at that time of salvation. By making such a statement as above you then would be requiring speaking in tongues as a requirement for salvation--a heresy. The only baptism of the Spirit that the Bible knows of is that which takes place at salvation.

    This is AOG doctrine but not Baptist doctrine. To say that healing is in the atonement is just plain heresy. It is false teaching that goes against the plain teaching of the Bible, and gives a false hope to all that it is taught to. It is deception of the worst kind.

    Romans 8:22-23 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    If healing was in the atonement why:
    could not Paul heal himself--his thorn in the flesh?
    He could not heal Timothy?
    He could not heal Epraphoditus?
    He could not heal Trophimus, whom he left sich at Miletus. Why? Please explain.

    Why does the Bible say clearly that we wait for the redemption of our body? It says that our body will not be redeemed until Christ comes again. We wait for its redemption. Their will be sickness until the coming of Christ; until the resurrection; until we receive our glorified bodies. There is no healing in the atonement. That is a lie. Why are there so many Charismatics and their "faith healers" that must wear glasses. Physician heal thyself. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. Why? It is not in the atonement. It is in our glorified body, when the Lord comes agaian.
    This doctrine is pure lies and deception of the worst kind. It causes false hope, broken hearts, while many go home with the same problems and sickness that they had before while at the same time being accused of not having enough faith. Now a guilt trip is being laid upon them to make things even worse. The people that advocate this type of theology are some of the most cruel people I know. How deceptive and cruel they can be, I will never know.
    DHK
     
  11. Ben W

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  12. Ben W

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    This Charismatic belief, but far from any Baptist distinctive. A true Baptist does not speak in tongues, nor does he believe that it is the evidence of of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Whoever believes in this needs to take a theology course in pneumatology. Again, baptism of the Holy Spirit takes place for every believer at that time of salvation. By making such a statement as above you then would be requiring speaking in tongues as a requirement for salvation--a heresy. The only baptism of the Spirit that the Bible knows of is that which takes place at salvation.</font>[/QUOTE]Baptism of the Holy Spirit does result in a new tounge, witnessing in your own language your testimony, yet I would say that speaking in unkown tounges is not the evidence of Baptism in the Holy Spirt, I can confirm that this is not taught by the Australian AOG. AOG conferences act independantly, so the teaching there can vary.
     
  13. Ben W

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    This is AOG doctrine but not Baptist doctrine. To say that healing is in the atonement is just plain heresy. It is false teaching that goes against the plain teaching of the Bible, and gives a false hope to all that it is taught to. It is deception of the worst kind.</font>[/QUOTE]Yet the Bible teaches this plainly whether it is our "experience" or not. James is not teaching any type of deception.

    James 5:14-15 "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the Elders of the church, and let them pray over him, annointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has commited any sins he will be forgiven".
     
  14. DHK

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    Ben,
    There is a vast difference between the filling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The filling of the Holy Spirit is a command of Scripture given to every believer which we should all exercise to be every day of our lives.

    Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
    --The verb here indicates that we should be continually, constantally filled with the Holy Spirit. It is not a one time occurence. It is the giving of ourselves over to the Holy Spirits control on a daily basis; submitting ourselves to him daily.
    This is vastly different then the verb "baptize" which only happens when one is saved.
    DHK
     
  15. Ben W

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    Interesting point DHK and I might point out that it is thanks to posts like yours that gets me into some serious Bible study at times! [​IMG]

    Yet here is the thing, if we are filled with the Holy Sprit, how is it that we need re-filling. Are we not filled the one time at our Salvation?
     
  16. DHK

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    Yet the Bible teaches this plainly whether it is our "experience" or not. James is not teaching any type of deception.

    James 5:14-15 "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the Elders of the church, and let them pray over him, annointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has commited any sins he will be forgiven".
    [/QUOTE]
    What was quoted is AOG doctrine, otherwise why would it be quoted. Most Charismatics believe that healing is in the atonement. I will say it plainly--it is a damnable heresy.
    The teaching in James 5 is the proper way that someone seriously sick should request for healing today. I believe that, and we have exercised that pattern in our church in these days. However we carefully explain that it is not God's will for Him to heal all the time. It is God that heals, not man. And God's will is not that every person be healed. He never promised that. Having explained those things through the Scriptures we take the steps as outlined in James 5, and pray for the individual annointing her/him with oil. Often the person is healed; sometimes not. I believe God still heals. I never denied that he didn't But I am not a faith healer. No one has the gift of healing today. No one has the ability to walk into a hospital and heal all the sick that are there. No has the ability to heal all the sick that would come to them. The gift of healing has obviously ceased, just as the other gifts have.
    DHK
     
  17. DHK

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    As posted it is AOG doctrine. That you cannot deny. Whether you witness it in Australia or not is another matter. It is taught as doctrine here all the time.
    DHK
     
  18. Phillip

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    I believe that it is actually how much we allow the Holy Spirit to take control of our lives therefore having us do the will of our Father in Heaven.
     
  19. Phillip

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    DHK does an excellent job of describing healing. Do we believe in miracles today? Yes, I am a walking testimony of it.

    The gift of healing such as Peter and Paul being able to heal people is long gone. Nobody has proven to do this now. BUT, I will say that we DO believe in miracles. The Holy Spirit just does not give particular people a gift. We do as John says and we ask God to heal someone. Our entire church prays for that person and you would be amazed at the number who actually do much better. Our pastor was literally hours from dying with Leukemia and he was put on an experimental drug only three years ago and is all but cured.

    We do not have to find someone like Peter and lay our sick in their shadow to have them healed.

    At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out for the first time to the Christians there. It was the result of a promise that Jesus made before He left the earth.

    Because of the abuse of tongues in the Corinthian church, Paul restricted it to the point of almost not being able to use it. Today it is misused by the Pentecostals.

    Like I said earlier, if you start down the road to Pentecostalism, you will eventually take up all of their beliefs.

    Not suprisingly when asked about the other beliefs, the Bapticostals posting here said they already believe those beliefs.

    What we now have is Pentecostal infiltration of Baptist churches, plain and simple. This is partially the Baptist churches fault for not grounding their members in the scripture well enough to recognize false doctrine when it is presented.

    What will the churches do when Mormonism starts infiltrating. I actually remember someone posting on the board about Baptist ministers getting along with Mormon bishops during city wide religious programs. We might as well join in with the Muslims.

    I know there are many good Christians in the Pentecostal churches, but I also know they are being fooled by wasting their time babbling and focusing their lives on things that are unimportant. A BIG issue in the Pentecostal church is speaking in tongues. Why build such a major doctrine around a book in the Bible that plays down speaking in tongues because of its misuse in the Church or Corinth.

    What is even the purpose of the emotional outbursts. Can the pastor not speak in English to edify the church? Now if you have a group of Latinos in your church and you don't know Spanish, who knows God may make them understand. After all this is the true speaking in tongues (languages). Being this is the way it really worked, it is surprising today that we do not see a lot of the correct method of speaking in tongues going on----only the false babbling of the pentecostal churches when they are supposedly Baptised of the Holy Spirit.

    Take a look at this post and then take a look at the poll to see where speaking in tongues stand in Baptist Churches.
     
  20. Bob Alkire

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