Baptized with Fire

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Lorelei, Sep 7, 2001.

  1. Lorelei

    Lorelei
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    Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"

    What exactly did he mean that Jesus would baptize with fire? Is that referring to the cloven tongues like fire, or could it be the eternal judgement for the lost who are cast into the lake of fire in Revelation?

    In doing my study today, it just hit me. What baptism of fire???? Any thoughts?

    ~Lorelei
     
  2. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H.
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    Lorelei, I can see that you are an avid Bible reader and you are searching the Scriptures as the Brethren in Berea. It is a good question. After reading Matthew 3:11, I could not see any correlation to the fires referred to in the book of Revelation. But rather, it is talking about the properties of the fire in relation to the Holy Spirit. See what Matthew Henry, the noted Bible commentator, wrote about this:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"By the powerful working of his grace; He shall baptize you, that is, some of you, with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Note (1) It is Christ’s prerogative to baptize with the Holy Ghost. This he did in the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit conferred upon the apostles. This he does in the graces and comforts of the Spirit given to them that ask him. (2) They who are baptized with the Holy Ghost are baptized as with fire. Is fire enlightening? So the Spirit is a Spirit of illumination. Is it warming? And do not their hearts burn within them? Is it consuming? And does not the Spirit of judgment, as a Spirit of burning, consumed the dross of their corruption? Does fire make all it seizes like itself? And does it move upwards? So does the Spirit make the soul holy like itself, and its tendency is heaven-ward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [​IMG]
     
  3. DocCas

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    I agree with Brother Barnabas, the "fire" being refered to is the fire of Acts 2 (note the conjunction "and" - it does not say "or" - the same people got both). And the fact that fire no longer appears indicates, at least to me, that event no longer occurs. [​IMG]
     
  4. Chet

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    Hi Lorelei,

    I believe that Jesus in this age is baptizing the believers with the Holy Spirit. He also will be baptizing the lost with fire. But in this context, I believe the unrepented Jews are the ones who will be baptized with fire. The verses before and after goes with verse 11. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is throne into fire. In verse nine we read that John completely rejected Pharisaic Judaism and said that God would raise up stones to become His Children. This is the Gentiles. Judaism was in danger of being removed unless there was productive fruit in repentance, God would remove the tree. Then John goes on to say that he only baptizes with water - which was for the nation of Israel to be identified with repentance. But Jesus will even baptize (identify) with the Holy Spirit and baptize (identify) with fire. Fire here is judgment. Then John goes on to say that he will separate the wheat from the chaff, with unquenchable fire. This is a unique fire. The baptism with fire referred to the judging and cleansing of those who would enter the kingdom as prophesied in Malachi.

    Mal 3:2-4
    But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will
    be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
    NIV


    The Messiah would prepare a remnant (wheat) for the kingdom by empowering and cleansing the people. But those who reject Jesus (Chaff) would be then judged and cast into eternal unquenchable fire.

    Mal 4:1-2
    "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
    NIV

    This is all different than what is spoken of in Acts.

    Acts 2:2-3 “And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty
    wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.”
    NKJV

    This if From Barn’s Notes:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matt 3:11
    [With fire] This expression has been variously understood. Some have supposed that John refers to the afflictions and persecutions with which men would be tried under the Gospel; others, that the word "fire" means judgment or wrath. According to this latter interpretation, the meaning is that he would baptize a portion of mankind-those who were willing to be his followers-with the Holy Spirit, but the rest of mankind-the wicked-with fire; that is, with judgment and wrath. Fire is a symbol of vengeance. See Isa 5:24; 61:2; 66:24. If this is the meaning, as seems to be probable, then John says that the ministry of
    the Messiah would be far more powerful than his was. It would be more searching and
    testing; and they who were not suited to abide the test would be cast into eternal fire. Others have supposed, however, that by fire, here, John intends to express the idea that the preaching of the Messiah would be refining, powerful, purifying, as fire is sometimes an emblem of purity, Mal 3:2. It is difficult to ascertain the precise meaning further than that his ministry would be very trying, purifying, searching. Multitudes would be converted; and those who were not true penitents would not be able to abide the trial, and would be driven away.
    (from Barnes' Notes)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    With love,

    Chet

    [ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]
     
  5. Lorelei

    Lorelei
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    As I said, this thought came to me while I was studying something else, I guess that is why I didn't research it first before asking. I didn't even read it in context, I just went HUH??? How come I never caught that before and how come I have never really heard anyone mention or teach on the fire part of Christ's baptism mentioned by John. I figured you all would be so wonderfully kind as to point me to the correct instances of fire in the Bible that would match up this one! [​IMG].

    BJ Halo,

    Who are the Brethren in Berea??? :confused:
    Thanks for your kind words though, I just want to know all I can about our Lord, I want to study His Word so that I can be better equipped to serve Him and to show Him that I love Him. I can't seem to get enough of the Word and this board and all of your insights have been a great blessing in this area! Even when I do not agree with everyone I still find blessings for each disagreement makes me search deeper into His Word! [​IMG]

    Thomas,

    I figured you would say that. :D I think it was actually your definition of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in another thread that really brought this into question for me. When I read that verse this morning I saw it in a whole new light. I am not saying that I agree, but I think I am understanding what you are saying now. I will continue to study this for certain!

    Chet,

    It is funny. I went to meet my husband for lunch and I mentioned this question to him. His first thought was that it might have to do with the type of fire that would purge metals, the one that cleanses the metal of all impurities.

    My mind is in a whirlwind right now, so I will reread all these thoughts later. What you are saying makes sense and I love that it is backed up with other scripture! (The main reason I don't read a lot of commentaries is there is more interpretation then confirmation of the ideas)

    This goes along with what my husband was saying I think. I will do some more reading on my own in Malachi.

    I might ask, does this in any way correlate to the following verse? This is the verse that I thought of when my husband mentioned the refining type of fire.


    1 Corinthians 3
    12
    "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13
    Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14
    If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15
    If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"


    Thanks again all, and please keep all thoughts coming. The more I hear, the more I study!! [​IMG]

    ~Lorelei
     
  6. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H.
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei: Who are the Brethren in Berea??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Lorelei, we find the Berean brethren in Acts 17:10-12
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night, unto Berea: who coming tither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honorable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Chet, you have an interesting reign of thought there about the fires of judgment, and the Scripture passages are helpful to follow. But you seem to converge two reign of thoughts here from Matthew 3:1-12. The first is when John the Baptist addresses the Pharisees and Sadducees (who came out into the wilderness to be baptized by him), pointing to their spiritual barrenness and warning them of impending judgment if they do not bear fruits meet for repentance. The second thought is the heralding of the one who will come after John the Baptist, "... Who’s shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire." John is talking about two things here, namely the greatness of the One to come after him and the type of baptism He will baptize the believers with. His power to thresh and burn the chaff, like they do on the threshing floor, only denotes His sovereign will to save or to kill - but not the type of baptism He uses. I believe that the two fires mentioned in verses 11 and 10, 13 are not the same. One is indeed depicts the fire of judgment while the other is the fire of the Holy Ghost. But of course, this is my humble opinion. [​IMG]
     
  7. Larry

    Larry
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    Lorelei,

    John was speaking to “many of the Pharisees and Sadducees”, V7. V5&6 tells us that Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about Jordan were being baptized , confessing their sins. So it is a no brainier to say that there was a crowd and there had to be some in the crowd that would be part of the Church.

    So we have a mixed multitude consisting of “Vipers” AND repentant Jews. Thus the statement “he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire”. V10 & 12 reaffirm the idea that fire is bad, Holy Ghost is good.

    Hi Chet!
    How are things going?
     
  8. HankD

    HankD
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    &gt;&gt;the refining type of fire&gt;&gt;

    KJV Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    KJV 1 Peter 1:77 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

    KJV Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
     
  9. S. Baptist

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
    Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"

    What exactly did he mean that Jesus would baptize with fire? Is that referring to the cloven tongues like fire, or could it be the eternal judgement for the lost who are cast into the lake of fire in Revelation?

    In doing my study today, it just hit me. What baptism of fire???? Any thoughts?

    ~Lorelei
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD;


    As Jesus told the woman, if she would drink of the "water" he gave, she would never thrist again, God's words are also "like fire" when believed. It will "burn out" the "dross" creating a "New Ceature".

    God's "Fire" (word) puts the fear of going to HELL in a person, Jesus's "Water" puts out that fear, we are then able to "walk in the fire" as the "three men in the furnace" without being hurt by it. (not condemned by God's fire, (word))

    I'll let you take it from there.
     

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