Basic Trinitarian Doctrine

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Chemnitz, May 15, 2002.

  1. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
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    Ok this is going to be a quick and dirty overview of Trinitarian Doctrine.

    First, we teach that there is One God, not three like the oneness people like to accuse us of teaching. So it boils down to Three Persons in One God, One God in Three Persons.

    Person does not equal another God.
    Person does not equal manifestation.
    Person does equal some sort of seperation from the others with their own set characteristics, most notably the Son, Jesus, is the only one with 100% humanity together with 100% divinity.
    All three persons were present from eternity because All three are God. How and why there are three persons we do not know because God did not reveal that to us, and He has already admitted to us that no one has seen his fullness because no man could handle the sight.
     
  2. Chemnitz

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    I have used this post several times before, but hey I am lazy ;) and why go to all the work when I already posted a perfectly good post that serves my purpose. :D

    The doctrine of the Trinity is not a New Testament development, as some hold, but is clearly taught also in the OT. "Come ye unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and His Spirit hath sent Me" (Is 48:16). In the very first verses of the Bible we learn of God and of the Spirit of God and of the Word of God, by whom all things were made (Gen.1:1-3); (Jn 1:1-3). Because there are more Persons than one, God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen 1:26). From the New Testament we learn that three distinct Persons were revealed at the baptism of Christ (Mat 3:16-17), and that all nations should be baptised "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt:19); (2 Cor. 13:14).

    The Father is true God. Of the Father Jesus says that He is "the only true God" (Jn 17:3). Paul writes: "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we in Him" (1 Cor. 8:6).
    He is a Person distinct from the Son. God "gave His only begotten Son" (Jn 3:16); in the fulness of time "God sent forth his Son" (Gal 4:4). He is distinct also form the Holy Ghost, since He anointed "Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power" (Acts 10:38). In Gal 4:6 He is distinguished from the Son and the Spirit: "God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts". Together with the Son He spirates the Holy Ghost from eternity. "When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me" (Jn 15:26).

    The Son is true God - "This (Jesus Christ) is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn 5:20). Paul says of Him that He "is over all, God blessed forever" (Rom 9:5). He is not merely similar to the Father, as Arius taught, but He is coequal with, and of the same essence as, the Father. Hence, "all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father"
    He is distinct from the Father (Jn 3:16; Gal 4:4) and from the Holy Spirit, whom He calls "another Comforter" than Himself (Jn 14:16-17)

    He is begotten from the Father from eternity (Ps 2:7: Jn 3:16) and together with the Father He sends forth the Spirit of Truth (Jn 15:26)

    The Holy Spirit is True God - Peter tells Ananias that when he lied unto the Holy Spirit, he had lied unto God (Acts 5:3-4). Christians are called the temple of God, because the Holy Spirit dwells in them (1 Cor 3:16).

    He is distinct from the Father and the Son, for in Jn 14:16 Christ clearly differentiates between Himself, the Father, and the Comforter.

    The Holy Spirit did not beget, nor was He begotten, but He proceeds from the Father and the Son from eternity He is the Spirit both of the Father (Mt 10:20) and of the Son (Gal 4:6). He proceeds from the Father, and is at the same time sent by the Son (Jn 15:26). "Jesus breathed on them and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (Jn 20:22).

    The eternal generation of the Son by the Father and the eternal spiration of the Holy Spirit by the Father and the Son are facts plainly taught in the Bible.

    Trinity is unity - The Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three Gods, but only ONE God. Neither is the Deity split into three parts, each Person being one-third of the Godhead; but each Person is the fullness of the Godhead (Col 2:9) Neither is each only a different manifestation, or phase, of the one divine essence, as ice and steam are but different forms of water, but each is a distinct Person, and each is the full and complete God. Thus the Father is the one and only God(Jn 17:3) the Son is the one and only God (1Jn 5:20); the Holy Spirit is the one and ony God (Acts 5:3-4). There is no subordiniation of one Person to the other, but the three Persons are of equal rank and majesty, none to be preferred before the other (jn 5:23). While definitely distinct in person, they are one in essence. Chirst says: "He that hath seen Me, hath seen the Father" (Jn 14:9) and "I and My Father are one" (Jn10:30). In this text for Greek has for "one" the neuter "hen" and not he masculine "heis" which shows that they are one in essence but not one in person. When Christ says "My Father is Greater than I" (Jn 14:28) this must not be understood of the Deity, but of the humanity of Christ in His humiliation. "Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood"..."We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance" (Athanasian Creed)

    [ May 15, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  3. Chemnitz

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    I am going to be leaving town in a couple of days and will be gone for 2 weeks. So don't go think I have run away when I stop posting Sat. It's not that I won't have internet access, because I will have it. It is just that I will be spending time with my fiancee and to be honest I would much rather be with her than hanging out with you guys. [​IMG] Not that I don't like yall, I do like hangin out with you guys, but uh she is much better company(better lookin too :D )
     
  4. DHK

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    Personally I do not believe that Christ was personally begotten of the Father. To say such borders on heresy. If Christ was begotten somwhere in eternity, then as the Jehovah Witnesses claim He is a created being!
    DHK
     
  5. ONENESS

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    Did you write this? You changed the whole verse around. Jesus is the Fullness of the Godhead bodily
     
  6. Chemnitz

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    You seem to have mistaken it for a direct quote. Col 2:9 "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."
     
  7. Norman

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    "First, we teach that there is One God, not three like the oneness people like to accuse us of teaching"

    Then you go and insist there are three "persons" with some kind of separation; three separate persons, each being God, is three Gods. Or else each is a fraction of the whole God. Which is it?
    What is a person anyway? Do you have three physical persons?
    There was a distinction between the Father and the Son, but Jesus said "the Father that dwelleth in me" in John 14:9-11. Read it. Then you have the Father and the Son as well as the Spirit being in the believer; so do three "persons" dwell inside you? Would they not have to be many persons to be in all believers? It makes much more sense to recognize that the Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus; also the Bible says there is only one Spirit. Why would you equate Spirit with person?
     
  8. MEE

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    If God didn't reveal that there are three persons, then why do you try to explain a doctrine that is not a revelation, according to the Bible? Hmmm..... :confused:

    Carol
     
  9. GrannyGumbo

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    The Bible teaches that Jesus is God (Jn.20:28). It teaches that the Father is God (Mat.6:9). It teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-5, 13:2). It teaches that God is one (Deut.6:4)

    1+1+1=1

    We cannot bring God down to our level and try to know Him by human reasoning.

    "Let God be true, and every man a liar."
     
  10. Brother Adam

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    You're quote is exactly why the mathmatical equation you gave doesn't work.

    UNP
    Adam
     
  11. Chemnitz

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    Although this was covered in my second post. Person does not equal a fraction nor does it equal an individual god.

    Person that which is selfsubsisting subject. Each has their own attributes such as only Jesus(the Son) became flesh, the Father did not become flesh and neither did the Holy Spirit. Ordinarily three persons have three essences, three wills three distinct operations. But in the Trinity the three persons have one and the same essence, not three; one set of divine attributes, not three; one operation in divine works, not three.

    The term person is far superior to the term manifestation, because manifestation does not account for how ONLY the Son became flesh.
     
  12. Lorelei

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    Why do Oneness people call the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit and not Jesus? Don't you believe that Jesus is now the name of God and isn't it God's Spirit that is supposed to be in you? Why must you not make a distinction between the Father and the Son yet you do so with the Spirit?

    Christ spoke of the Spirit as a person.

    Jesus said HE would send the Spirit From the Father and that He(The Spirit) would testify about Him.

    Jesus called the Spirit a He. Sounds personal to me.

    As I said before, the word person means personal. We can't define God in human terms and expect to fully understand Him. We must not limit God with our own limitations of space time and physical attributes and terminology. God is God and there none like my God!

    ~Lorelei
     
  13. GrannyGumbo

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    FlyFree432, I wrote 1+1+1=1 on purpose & I was being facetious. The oneness in this area mock us by saying we believe in 1+1+1=3 & then use it against us. They say "1x1x1=1 because Jesus is the One"! Sorry, if I don't understand your post.

    [ May 16, 2002, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]
     
  14. Norman

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    "The Bible teaches that Jesus is God (Jn.20:28). It teaches that the Father is God (Mat.6:9). It teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-5, 13:2). It teaches that God is one (Deut.6:4) "

    Exactly; that's what we've been trying to tell you. NOw as they are all God, and there is only one God, then why do you try to divide them into three persons? Especially when you do not find "three persons" in the Bible; not one single time.
     
  15. Norman

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    "Person that which is selfsubsisting subject. Each has their own attributes such as only Jesus(the Son) became flesh, the Father did not become flesh and neither did the Holy Spirit. Ordinarily three persons have three essences, three wills three distinct operations. But in the Trinity the three persons have one and the same essence, not three; one set of divine attributes, not three; one operation in divine works, not three. "

    So why do you insist on calling them 3 persons? If there is one essence, that's not 3 persons. You explain it correctly, then insist on putting the "3 persons" tag on it. And we are twisting scripture?¿¿¿
     
  16. Norman

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    "Jesus called the Spirit a He. Sounds personal to me."

    "He" is a pronoun. A pronoun takes on the meaning of the antecedent. Use of a pronoun does not make the Spirit a "person." The Spirit is very much alive, and as explained by one of you trinitarians, is the Spirit of the Father and of Jesus; why then do you call the Spirit a distinct person? You seem all mixed up.
     
  17. Chemnitz

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    You can harp on 'person' not being found in Scripture, but neither is 'manifestation' in relation to the nature of God. However, there is massive amounts of evidence to support Trinitarian doctrine. The verses we have been trying to get Oneness to attempt to explain without twisting their meaning into something they don't say are just a small sample. But as of yet he has not provided any answers. We have been waiting for a long time now. I wonder just how much longer we will have to wait...
     
  18. Norman

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    Here is the "oneness" doctrine:

    Deuteronomy 4:39, "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he (notice: he) is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is none else."

    Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (notice: beside me)

    Colossians 2:8-10, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power."

    I Timothy 3:16, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

    I Timothy 6:15-16, "Which in his time he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen." The blessed and only Potentate - there can't be more than one if he is the "only Potentate."

    You don't have to add these together to get something; consider each one separately and read the whole chapter if you wish so as not to take it out of context.
     
  19. Norman

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    "We can't define God in human terms and expect to fully understand Him. We must not limit God with our own limitations of space time and physical attributes and terminology. "

    Lorelei, that's exactly why I think we should not insist on saying "three persons." God is not a person, one or three doesn't matter; the Bible just says God is one - Galations 3:20. God is Spirit - John4:24.
    If it's so important to understand that God is three persons, why does the Bible not say so, not one single time?
     
  20. Chemnitz

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    Oh you just make it soooo easy.
    How about noting that YHWH the King of Israel, is not his redeemer YHWH of hosts. So we are up to two just in this verse alone.

    If you just went 3 more verses you would see your position falls apart. v.13 "And you, who were dead in you trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him..."(refering back to Christ because of context)

    So tell me who is the Spirit, because he sure doesn't sound like he is the same as God in this verse. If there were one in the same why would God in the flesh need to be vindicated.

    While that section is obviously talking about Christ. There is just one problem v.13 "I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,"
     

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