Before the Bema

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Dec 25, 2014.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    “We must all appear (or be manifested) before the judgment seat of Christ” (2Cor. 5:10). How are we all to be manifested? All will give an account of themselves—the saints when they are caught up to be with the Lord, the lost at the end of the millennium. The believers give an account of themselves in glory. What will there be to judge in them? He is identified in the life and glory of the Judge—in Him he is the righteousness of God (2Cor. 5:21).

    Conscience is not awakened by it at all for the believer, for that is purged (Heb. 10:2); but it does awaken something. “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men” (2Cor. 5:11). There is not only righteousness, but love. He sees the terror of judgment—the plight of the lost. The sight of the righteousness that judges is the occasion for his setting about to witness and preach to others.

    It puts love in activity, and then is added another thing: “We are manifest unto God” (2Cor. 5:11), not we shall be. We stand in the presence of the glory now, and whatever does not suit that glory is judged now (John 3:18)—having been condemned at the Cross. It acts on the conscience in the way of self-judgment. “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened (child-trained) of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world” (1Cor 11:31, 32).

    We want this light, but we must have absolute confidence in our Father, for there can be no happy play of affections if there is not this confidence. We cannot have fellowship with a person if we think he is going to condemn us; but “our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.” “God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord” (1John 1:3; 1Cor 1:9).

    Nor can we have confidence if we have not a perfectly purged conscience. “How much more shall the Blood of Christ . . . purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience” (Heb. 9:14; 10:22). This we have by the Lord Jesus who is our righteousness, He having obtained eternal redemption for us. I have a perfect righteousness, and so infinite that I can never get out of it.

    The Lord Jesus is the center of everything for the heart. “Set your affections on things above.” When I think of the exceeding and eternal weight of glory, it may seem too much for me; but when I see “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2Cor. 4:6), it puts my affections into play. “We love Him because He first loved us” (1John 4:19).

    There is grace needed every day for us passing through the wilderness, and it is the Lord Jesus who takes knowledge of our needs. Thus there are two parts of His present blessing for us: Himself the object of our affections, and His constant supply for our daily need. We have the righteousness, and we wait for the hope of it, the glorious hope which is suitable to the righteousness of God. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    -- W.B.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Romans 2:6-16 says that the future judgment that we face deals with going to heaven or hell.

    Romans 6:23 says the "wages of sin is death"

    2Cor 5:10 says that the judgment deals with both sin and good deeds "done in the body"
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Romans 2

    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
    ...

    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    ONLY in the false teachings of your "prophetess" does that judgement involve deciding heaven/hell, as ALL who have received jesus in this life will get to heaven, not one lost by Him, this is JUST a judgement unto value of good works done here for purpose of getting eternally rewarded or not!
     
  5. PreachTony

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    I've always been curious, Y1, as to the notion of eternal reward. Some contend that this judgment will determine the varying levels of reward we receive in Heaven. So what does that mean? Does that mean bigger mansions? Brighter crowns?

    Also, is it not possible for varying degrees of reward to open the door for jealously and envy in Heaven? Or will God strip away all emotion from us completely?

    I'm curious, as I've never seen this fully explained by anyone.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Romans 2

    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
    ...

    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    1. Turns out Romans 2 was written by Paul - not be a prophetess.
    2. Turns out the content of Romans 2 matters much more than simply flame posting while waiting to respond to the points raised in Romans 2.

    3. When I debate catholics on these subjects they struggle with the idea that sola scriptura testing is valid and that the details in the text should be noticed instead of just flame posting as the response.

    I am guessing everyone here can see how that would be a problem.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    The idea that the Romans 2 and 2Cor 5:10 future judgment confine the subject to nothing more than "how many toys in heaven" is disproven by the details in Romans 2 that so many are anxious to avoid..
     
  8. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Yes, a final reckoning will inevitably be evidenced to all by the recompense given to them in lieu of what type of life they ended with; v 7--the believer, and v 8 the unbeliever.

    I also find it instructional to realize that judgement itself is already determined in this life, and that it is in the next life this determination is passed (initiated).

    Concerning 2Co 5:10, the believer's life and all within it is considered "good": "He that doeth good is of God" (paraphrased--he that truly doeth good is of God--2John 1:11).

    The unbeliever's life is considered all evil: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled" (Titus 1:15).
     
  9. Getting it Right

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    If I may..........

    Yes, He is Faithful. We ARE the Righteousness of God in Him. We HAVE calm, confident assurance, Glorious calm, confident assurance, which IS the Righteousness of God; we rejoice in calm, confident assurance of God's Glory.

    :applause:
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Certainly it is true that in this life we make our decisions for heaven or hell and "it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgment" Heb 9.

    However in Romans 2:13-16, and in 2Cor 5:10 judgment is future for all.

    But in Rev 14:6-7 "the hours of his judgment HAS come" is the message of the first angel - indicating a time future to John when it can be said that the Judgment hour is fully come.

    True for the saints -- not true for those who have "fallen from Grace... and have been severed from Christ" (Gal 5:$) according to 2Cor 5;10

    "WE must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" -- and in 2Cor 5:10 both good AND evil deeds are said to be evaluated "whether they be good or evil" it does not say "and of course we only have good deeds".

    And of course Romans 6 makes it clear that the "wages of sin is death" -

    Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father"

    Romans 2:13-16 "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law will (future) be justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge"

    1 John 2 makes the case -
    My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

    this is the same "by their fruits" condition that Christ affirms in Matt 7 and that Paul affirms in Rom 2:6-16.



    True of the lost - no doubt.

    But many of those are in church having fallen from grace and been severed from Christ.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Bob - Our belief's concerning what "fallen from grace" means are different, so the same will be concerning "the judgement."

    There is a vast difference between unbeliever's "appearing before the judgment seat," and believer's appearing before it, which I do not think is worth pursuing with you at this time, for our belief's here are not close enough, and I say this our of respect not contention.
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    Heard Charles Stanley teach on this very subject, and he actually made sense of it...

    He said that while all will go into the Heavenly Choir assembly, that based upon how faithful we were to do the Will pof God in our lives hear, God will grant us the means to perceive and enjoy the Choir,

    Those saved as if by fire get the back row, and will enjoy what they see and know of it, while those awarded front row will get to see and understand much more ot it...
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    he holds to the false teachings of SDA concering the Investigative Judgement of believers after death, as he holds that NONE can know for certain they have eternal life, for if the lives judged do not allow god to suppor that, they forfeit the life in christ, and will get burned away..
     
  14. BobRyan

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    NT Authors were pretty big on testing all doctrine "sola scriptura" which is why I keep bringing scripture into this discussion.

    In Mark 7:6-13 there were conflicting views - but Christ showed that there is a "sola scriptura" solution even in those cases.

    This is the same discussion we often have with our RC friends - trying to convince them that the Bible matters even if opinions vary - and the Bible is helpful even where differences exist.

    I am pretty much sold on that idea.

    How often do we see examples as in the case of Acts 13, and Acts 17 and Acts 18 where Paul is going before people to explain his minority view "Sola Scriptura" -- The fact that a view is popular or not ... or the fact that it differs with this person or that person - is not what determines what is truth. It is not how the Protestant Reformation was decided. Rather the decision had to be based on the Bible and the conclusion that the Bible produces has to be taken seriously even if it is not popular within this or that group.

    Once Paul places the judgment in the Romans 2 context with results of that future judgment indicating eternal life or the lake of fire... and once he adds in "evil deeds" in the mix for that future judgment as in the case of 2Cor 5:10 -- and given that HE is the one that affirms the 'Forgiveness revoked" doctrine that Christ preaches in Matt 18 -- in places like Romans 11 "you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you" type of language.

    It casts a much broader scope of illumination on the subject of the future judgment. Why back away from that? It is only revealing a much larger picture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Dec 29, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2014
  15. Yeshua1

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    Those who have had their sins washed by the blood of jesus have forever passed over from spiritual death unto spiritual life, so the false claims made by the SDA as regarding the Investigative Judgement to see if one was found worthy to keep eternal life are not found i the scriptures, but in the false revelations of a false prophetess!
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    No; He -- Christ -- is faithful; He -- Christ -- is The Faithful : He -- Christ -- IS "the Righteousness namely of GOD" : He -- Christ -- "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS".

    We, "are RECKONED just" : "in Christ", "by grace", "through faith".
    We received, calm, and are confident in Christ, our assurance -- WHO IS the Righteousness of God. And we rejoice in full confidence in our Assurance -- Christ -- and glory in God in HIM, to the glory of His, Name.

    "Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine ..." is sung commonly among all Christians (if I can remember). There has after all remained some unity amongst us all, it seems to me
    Und es freut mich sehr.

    Post script:

    It remains one of the GREAT WONDERS of grace to me, how DOCTRINE takes flight when POETRY enters the heart.
     
    #16 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 18, 2015
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  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    PLEASE, don't place ME anywhere in that choir! It must be Hell's Choir!

     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    ... and still I have no clue what "the Bema" is ... eish!
     
  19. NetChaplain

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    I believe Paul is primarily addressing Gentiles in Romans 11 (v 13) concerning God's reception of those who believe, and an admonition to the Gentiles concerning those who do not believe (v 21--"spare not thee"), which are one and the same admonition to unbelieving Jews, some of whom He has previously "broken off" and "cut off." Hence, only unbelievers are in such a state, thus the "thee" in "spare thee not," cannot refer to any but the unbelievers.

    A most notable significance is that Scripture in both dispensations never portrays believers becoming unbelievers; besides, the concept is an oxymoron, seeing that one can be unbelieving and then believing, but never the inverse. For if one can be proven to be an unbeliever (by manner of life and conversation) after claiming to believe, he is self-deceived in his initial claim of believing.

    God has ever maintained a separation or "enmity" (Gen 3:15) between unbelievers and believers; which has remained an antipathy since its conception.

    Also note that the prior Covenant could and was broken by the generality of Israel who had never believed, even to this day, and was conditional; but the New Covenant cannot be broken because it is non-conditional and is between the Father and the Son, which covenant involves God causing the believer to remain (Phl 2:13), same for Millennium-Israel (Jer 31; Eze 36).
     
    #19 NetChaplain, Jan 18, 2015
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  20. NetChaplain

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    Hi GIR - You probably mean the same as we are "made (emphasis on made) the righteousness of God in Him," as Gerhard attests, which is always vicarious and never our own, as you probably agree. Imputed from Christ, not produced by self; i.e Christ is "made unto us . . . righteousness" (1Co 1:30).
     

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