Being Chosen Requires a Response (Of Faith) from One’s Own Heart! Like it or Not!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. Benjamin

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    Regarding Systematic Determinist’ traditions of trying to force fit pre-selection election, it can clearly be seen that the scripture makes a clear “true” promise to ALL which is the exact opposite of the teaching of the “Doctrine of Forget Hope/Determinism” in that it shows all are offered grace on one real condition, “through faith”. (Eph 2:9) That condition (faith) is not and cannot be excluded from one being “chosen”.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    (Eph 2:8)

    Those who preach the doctrines of Calvinist/Determinist proclaim that you must be pre-elected - irresistibly, are unable to respond to God’s calling – totally, unless pre-determined to do so. Yet, when preaching the Gospel they generally exclude and avoid telling the masses what they believe to be true (They fail to be transparent in their preaching of Gospel as they believe it which to be forthcoming and honest would have to include telling the lost that they may have no hope because of not being pre-selected for election.) Like it or not, Determinists, there is a condition to being saved by grace and that condition is FAITH - which must come from one’s own heart and everyone has that ability to respond. This is a vital part of Gospel message and any attempt to cover it up or exclude it when telling the promises of God to ALL His creatures is what I would consider a deceitful practice by the Determinists. A practice which is rooted in and conditioned upon holding to the doctrines of Calvinism in which all parts (the TULIP) necessarily hinge on Determinism in any logical sense if it were to support their man-made philosophical rambling. They attempt to force fit interpretations of scriptures throughout to fit determinism and call it “The Gospel”, the “Doctrines of Grace” while excluding that grace must come through faith which is a vital of the true Gospel which should include Doctrines of Grace through Faith.

    But the non-determinist has nothing of the sort in which they motivated to hold back. This is an example of the message of grace through faith that I (A non-determinist) proclaim, the true Gospel promise to all God’s creatures:

    (Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

    The deterministic view must force fit change the “you/your” faith which is spoken of throughout the Bible into Him/His grace while excluding what is clearly mandated to be from your/their faith from your/their own heart.


    If the Determinist doesn’t “like” the idea that they or you have to respond from your/their own heart in faith I would suggest they take it to the Lord in prayer!!!


    The Determinist focus is on grace alone and that is simply not Biblical.

    I am truly concerned about a preference to leave the condition of one’s own free response of faith out of the salvific message all-together, whether it is for yourself or others.

    It is as if those of the Determinist persuasion hate the fact that they would have to confess in faith from their own heart of their own free will and rather love to profess the message of darkness:

    “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
    (1Jn 1:5)

    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    (Joh 1:9)

    I ask honestly: Did the determinist have no choice? Did faith have to be determined upon them??? If so, I find this sad ,sad, sad; where is the love of the truth in that nonsensical determinist’ view which is clearly contrary to Romans 10:9 and 10 and the whole purpose of God in creating the world in love and revealing this Light to all in it what He did for us?

    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    (Rom 1:17-20)

    There is true judgment in this matter:

    He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
    (Deu 32:4)

    You must believe with your own heart to be justified:

    (Rom 10:10) For a person believes with his heart and is justified, and a person declares with his mouth and is saved.

    Let’s be honest here Determinist! Whether you like it or not it is God's Doctrine of Grace 'through Faith" and that is a condition that should not be taken lightly or left out of the Gospel!

    Don’t take out the condition of faith from your doctrine, throw out that deterministic garb about grace which makes you ashamed to even tell others that God loves and died for them for the purpose to bring a genuine offer of grace to all in the world He created. Be honest to yourself, because the condition of true faith from one’s own heart is the only way one is justified and freely receives grace from God.

    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    (Rom 3:22-24)

    You don’t know that you were specially pre-selected, you can’t claim faith that didn’t come from your own heart, don’t be deceived even the devils believe there is One God yet they tremble, they too exclude and try to avoid the purposes and meanings of God’s Love which come through a promise made in the Son at the foundation of creation to all God’s creatures. One needs “faith” in love of the Truth that “God is Love” which only comes from knowing Him and loving Him in truth from your own heart.

    For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
    (Gal 5:5-6)

    Friends, I could go on all day and night telling what the scripture says and it doesn’t ever exclude anyone from hope except those who refuse to believe, or have faith from within their own hearts after hearing the truth. Again, God's judgment in the matter is not ever made against those who could not respond as He is judges in truth. (Deut 32:4) And I would never come to the point that I could not be transparently honest or be deterred away from proclaiming that all have hope in the promise of God’s grace through faith because of some foolish doctrine that tries to force fit determinism into God's plan of salvation.

    That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    (Joh 3:15-17)

    Now, faith from one’s own heart is NOT a condition to be left out of the Gospel “Truth” which tells about God’s promise of “Love” for ALL those in the world He created! That's how God works! Believe it or Not! Like it or Not!
     
    #1 Benjamin, Sep 4, 2012
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  2. Bronconagurski

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    Benjamin, there is a pertinent question:

    What is the gift of God, salvation, or the faith to believe? Now I personally think that it is salvation, but the definition of faith means that you have been persuaded after hearing the word of God. Without the Holy Spirit's convicting power, we would not believe. Where I differ from mainstream Calvanism is that I think the individual has the choice to accept or reject the conviction, thus exercising free will. But no true Christian I know would ever take credit for accepting a free gift that is by grace and delivered by the power of the gospel and convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is truly of the Lord.

    Here is how Adam Clarke believes:

    But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τῃ γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ ὑμων· Θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ἱνα μη τις καυχησηται· “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and This (τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.
     
    #2 Bronconagurski, Sep 4, 2012
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  3. OldRegular

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    Not a single verse of Scripture in the OP refutes the fact that God chose those He would save before the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 1:3-7
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


    1. God blessed us with all spiritual blessings.

    2. How? God chose us before the foundation of the world.

    3. God predestinated us unto adoption as children.

    4. That was according to His good pleasure.

    5. God made us accepted in the beloved, Jesus Christ.

    6. God redeemed us by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    7. That redemption was according to His grace.
     
  4. Benjamin

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    Chosen in Christ with a condition of faith to obtain that grace. Note: the above post has neglected the whole premise Op which argues for the condition of faith from one's own heart and which is scripturally backed up.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    Then find the requirement for faith in the following passage!

    Ephesians 1:4-7
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


    Those who believe in The Doctrines of Grace do not neglect the part faith plays in Salvation. The rallying cry of the Reformation was Justification by Faith alone! We just say that foreseen faith is not the basis for election! The above Scripture shows that election is the purview of God alone. You had no part in it!
     
  6. SovereignMercy

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    And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    Notice that the first thing that happens in the order of salvation is that God gives life to election, dead sinners. Notice He says us, referring to the elect, not everyone. Also notice that faith as well as grace is a gift, not the results of a human work as you teach.

    But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Pretty clear that the new birth and faith are the work of God, although you will most likely continue to reject Him.

    You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

    I know you will probably quote some famous "commentator" to try to explain away what the text clearly says just like the Pharisees and the Sadducees did. But if God could change me than He can most surely change any of you, but only if it is in His eternal will.
     
  7. percho

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    KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith;
    YLT for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith,

    One place where Young, who I think primarily translated from the, Textus Receptus (1550), did not put the article, the, before faith for it is in the TR Greek.

    For by grace ye are, having been saved, through the faith. (Mine, yet I am not qualified for I know no Greek.

    Scripture4all.org Greek interlinear; to the for grace ye are ones having been saved through the faith.

    The faith???

    What is one saved from? The condemnation of death brought forth by sin. Sin being magnified by the law of God. Sin is the transgression of the law.

    The faith???

    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, Galatians 3:22 Under the law, condemned to death.

    Something needs, "to come," so that man can be removed from being under the law, under the condemnation of sin that, the schoolmaster, the law shows him he has committed.

    YLT; Gal, 3:23 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed,

    This was before what ever had to be done to bring salvation (being saved) was done, the faith most believe you have to exercise, a work by the way, did not exist.

    YLT; Gal 3:24 so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous,--- We were under the law the schoolmaster until Jesus the Christ did what he had to do so we could be declared righteous, justified. What is that??? Romans 5:8,9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood (declared righteous),we shall be saved from wrath through him. What does Romans 5:1 say this justified by his blood to be? 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Now Jesus has died, shed his blood. The faith has come. Are the called still under the law, the schoolmaster?

    YLT; Gal. 3:25 and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

    Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: (can not put you eternally to death for you are already dead in Christ until he our life shall appear. for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Col 3:4 When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, (justified, made righteous) much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    It through the faith of Jesus Christ, that the grace of God was given, which brings salvation.
     
  8. quantumfaith

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    :applause::applause::applause:
     
  9. percho

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    I also have a question concerning Ephesians 2:1.

    Is, "hath he quickened," in any Greek Text?

    If not then when something is not in the text then we should not assume it should be in the text.

    I understand concerning verse 5 but hat does not mean we are to put us being quickened in verse 1.

    We are in Christ verse 6 which means we shall have what Christ has already received, ie being quickened. See Rom 8:11
     
    #9 percho, Sep 4, 2012
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  10. Benjamin

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    What a ridiculous statement! I showed you the requirement for faith and where it needs to come from in the Op which you continue to dodge while you play games at providing Calvinist’ dogma. If you what to see the requirement for faith in the passage you presented all you need to do is read a little further and note the context which you ignore when all you had to do is read just a few more lines:

    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    (Eph 1:13)
     
  11. OldRegular

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    Call it ridiculuous if you choose. The declaration of election to Salvation by God occurred before the foundation of the world and is shown to be solely the purview of God absent any act on the recipients part. That is called unconditional election! You cannot deny it and be honest with Scripture!
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    Same old tired arguments over the same old issues that do not advance the kingdom and do not advance knowledge of God. Not one iota.
     
  13. The Archangel

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    Seriously, what is it in you that causes so much hatred for your brothers and sisters that happen to be Calvinists? Why do you so needlessly and incessantly misrepresent what we believe? We are not determinists as you describe us.

    No true Calvinist that I know of would reject the need to exercise faith in order to be saved. The issue is where does that faith come from. None of us believes that persons are saved without believing.

    The issue is, as you've addressed this thread, a response of faith. Do we, as Calvinists, believe in a necessary response of repentance and faith in order to be saved? Absolutely. The difference is this: We believe the response of faith is the result of election (being chosen), not the cause of it. The faith still comes from our own heart, though we think it is a gift of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

    But, to say we don't believe in a necessary response to the Gospel and Christ of repentance and faith is to misrepresent our position and to build a strawman for your own morbid and ignorant delights.

    I certainly hope you will, at the very least, rightly represent what we say we believe. A brother or sister in Christ deserves at least that much from you.

    The Archangel
     
  14. Winman

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    Saying God chose us "in him" before the foundation of the world does not mean election was unconditional, it refutes this. We were chosen "in him" which means when we believe and are baptized into the body of Christ.

    Romans 9:11 does not say Esau and Jacob were chosen unconditionally, but it does say they the were not chosen because of any good or evil works they had performed. That leaves faith which is not a work, and is always contrasted to works in scripture.

    Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

    Esau and Jacob were not chosen of works, but of him that calleth. That means those who answer and obey the call of God in faith as Abraham did.

    Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    By faith, when Abraham was called, obeyed. This is why he was chosen.
     
  15. Benjamin

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    The Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election is logically dependent on strict determinism. Faith cannot be determined upon you and still be response from “your own heart”. As you just admitted you believe you have nothing to do with it. You cannot deny the condition of a true response of faith from your own heart and be honest with the scripture as I pointed out in the Op.
     
  16. Benjamin

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    I misrepresent nothing. Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one cannot do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.

    Frankly, I resent your false accusation of me hating my brothers and sisters, what is it in you that causes you to misrepresent me with that lie (strawman)? Could it be you have nothing else left in your ignorance of critical thinking skills but to deny simple logic and resort to such ad hominem fallacious tactics while making claims of personal martyrdom?

    My argument is against the Doctrines of Calvinism/Determinism and you can put it in the bank that I have a problem with a doctrine that would preach the dark message of no hope except for the especially lucky pre-selected election of the few, even if they won’t admit it with some “truth” and transparency up front when preaching what they call the gospel as I spelled out in the Op. It is not the Gospel (Good News) to all the world in the Calvinist position but its a gospel is bad news for for most when the "truth" of what they believe is ever told.

    And Needlessly?!? NOT for the multitudes who are familiar with the Calvinist doctrines and have been lead to believe they may not have been one of the preselected few and thereby have an excuse not to respond while making the same argument Determinist do! Simply, the condition of faith from one’s own heart is not met in the systematic ramblings of Calvinism/Determinism as it amounts to a doctrine of pre-determined grace alone!

    The Calvinist/Determinist idea of a response of faith is not that it comes freely from your own heart due to the influences of God, but that He pre-determinately caused that irresistible effect to respond to those influences. Yes, the Bible requires a real, a true responsibility from man to respond in a condition of faith for love of the truth of the Word after hearing it.
     
    #16 Benjamin, Sep 5, 2012
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  17. Benjamin

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    BTW, Rev, your wrong about that; I wish you could hear me preach the Gospel to those who think they have a reason not to respond to the truth or do not have the ability to know and have a relationship with God. I preach a Gospel (Good News) message that is promise given to all and I can back that up pretty well with a doctrine that includes true freewill and the purposes of a God who loves them taking it all the way back to Genesis if necessary, partially because of my practice here. Yes, I can honestly tell a person Jesus loves them and wants them to respond and that does advance the kingdom.
     
  18. Cypress

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    I agree with you here Benjamin, loving a brother would necessitate sharing truth as we know it. Although at all times it should be our effort to do so in a fashion that reflects God in us.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    Go back and read Archangel's response again. Perhaps it will help both you and WM to purge yourself of such hatred toward those who believe the Doctrines of Grace.

    I sure don't see any pastoral love in your posts.
     
  20. AresMan

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    Faith is the channel ("through faith") with which God gives us for the grounds of justification andto obtain His spiritual blessings; and this faith is something God gives to those whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world:

    Php 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
    Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


    To our adversaries (those who are finally lost), the gospel is "an evident token of perdition," but to us the gospel is "of salvation," and that of God BECAUSE unto us (unlike unto them) it is given to believe in Christ for His sake!

    No flesh can glory in His presence, because of God are we in Christ Jesus. It is not of ourselves that we are in Christ by out autonomous faith. It is given to us (unlike to the adversaries) to believe. Therefore, it is ALL of God that we are in Christ. Why? Because Christ is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

    2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
    1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


    For crying out loud, you cannot let this loftly language about the power of the word of God come to naught.
    By the word of God the heavens were created.
    By the word of God we are born again.

    The word of the lord endures forever.

    God's powerful word is not dependent on His own creation's autonomous contribution to make it effectual.
    God gives us our faith whereby we believe the gospel.
    We are born again by the same word of God that created the universe.

    Stop making a holy, perfect, omnipotent God dependent on His own sinful, fallen creatures to carry out His eternal purpose. He is the potter and we are the clay.

    You don't have to like it, but you can accept what the Scriptures say.
     

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