Belief

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by ONENESS, Jul 16, 2002.

  1. ONENESS

    ONENESS
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    This is from a continuation from another thread.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by ONENESS:
     
  2. Chemnitz

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    [ July 16, 2002, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  3. Don

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    Summarized from a story found in a recent Sword of the Lord publication:

    A young lady had lived all her life being told that even though she was saved, she still had to obey the Mosaic laws to "keep" saved.

    One day she discovered through her biblical reading the concept of "grace."

    She was excited, but also dismayed; she asked her pastor, "Isn't this a dangerous doctrine? What keeps Christians from discovering this liberty, and going out and doing any old thing they want to?"

    The pastor replied: "Are you going to go out and start doing all of the old sinful stuff you used to do?"

    Horrified, the girl quickly said, "NO!"

    The pastor asked, "Why not?"

    "Because I love Jesus," she quickly answered. Then she smiled, as she realized the answer to her "dangerous doctrine."

    Understand, Oneness?
     
  4. ONENESS

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    I sure do Don!! Isn't Grace wonderful?!!!

    Don, now lets determine when this girl was saved?

    Was it when she was born?
    Was it when she was dedicated by her parents to the Lord?
    Was it when she was baptized as an infant?
    Was it when she Believed In Jesus Christ?
     
  5. Chemnitz

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    Does it really matter?
     
  6. ONENESS

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    Does it really matter?</font>[/QUOTE]You tell me......
     
  7. AITB

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    I know, I know, pick me, pick me!!! :D

    The answer is - before the foundation of the world

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." Eph 1:3-4

    AITB [​IMG]
     
  8. Dualhunter

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    Repentance is inseparable from faith in Christ. By believing that Christ died for your sins, you admit that you've done something wrong (ie. sinned) for Christ to die for in your place.

    [12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    [13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    [14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV

    When a person truly places their faith in Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is a deposit which guarantees salvation. If you give a deposit, you do not get the deposit back unless you pay up. Now since the deposit is the Holy Spirit, nobody is going to be taking the Holy Spirit with them to hell so you can be sure that if you really ever had the Holy Spirit to begin with, God will pay up and it just so happens that what He has promised to pay is eternal life with Him.

    [20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matthew 7:20 KJV

    If the Holy Spirit is truly in a person and working in his or her life then it should be noticable. Maybe not always and maybe not as much as it should but if the Spirit is there it should show.

    [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23 KJV

    The above are the signs of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you do not see those things in your life, you should ask yourself why.
     
  9. ONENESS

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    I know, I know, pick me, pick me!!! :D

    The answer is - before the foundation of the world

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." Eph 1:3-4

    AITB [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Good Answer but not what I am looking for.

    Thanks
     
  10. ONENESS

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    Thats a pretty good belief too that you are saved the moment that you believe. In a sence I guess that is true. Just like we are saved by hope, and just like we are saved through child bareing.

    I have to stand on the fact, that you dont have scripture saying that Repentance is inseparable from faith.

    We see an account in Acts where Paul asks the Question. "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed

    Notice it says After that ye believed. Not when ye beleived.

    So my orginal question is still open to Don. And chemitz I am waiting on you to tell me If it matters or not.
     
  11. Chemnitz

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    I asked you first, why does it matter?
    A person is saved the moment they stop runnning from the free gift that God offers, not by anything they do.
    So a person could be saved in the womb, at the time of their baptism, just sitting listening to a sermon, or while reading the Bible.

    Your assuming the is a disernable amount of time between the two events.

    [ July 16, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  12. ONENESS

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    Your assuming the is a disernable amount of time between the two events.</font>[/QUOTE]Chemtiz you are so much smarter than my self. I admire you knowledge i really do. But come on.....

    It matters b/c there is alot of false doctrine going around.

    I agree with that for the most part.

    This is what my first statment was referring to. "So a person could be saved in the womb". Is this what you believe.

    John 3:3
    Verliy verily I say unto you expect a man be born again he cannot Enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

    Was this commandment from God or from man?

    God bless

    Being bornagain requires alot more than just beleiving.

    [ July 16, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
     
  13. DHK

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  14. Dualhunter

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    Notice it says After that ye believed. Not when ye beleived.
    </font>[/QUOTE]For your first point, I thought it was obvious enough that I didn't give any scripture for that point.

    [1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    [5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    [6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    [7] After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    [8] And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 KJV

    Notice that it says that "Christ died for our sins". I you claim that Christ died for your sins but also claim that you have no sins for Christ to die for, you contradict yourself and deny what Christ did. The thing which I thought was quite obvious is that: if you believe that Christ died for your sins, you must admit to having sins for him to die for and so somebody who trusts that Christ died for his or her sins admits to having broken God's Law. By repenting of your sins towards God (simply admitting that you're not perfect doesn't cut it if you don't admit it to God), you acknowledge His existence and if you in acknowleging your sins before God you acknowledge that Christ paid the price of your sins then you believe. If you do not admit your sin, you call God a liar and can't really be said to believe in Him.

    As for the second point, it's a simple matter of cause and effect. God's Holy Spirit convicts you and you put your trust in God and then as a result of that, God then seals you with His Holy Spirit. As for the people in Acts 19, notice that they were disciples of John the Baptist. John preach repentance of sins to make clear the way for Christ. Salvation is not about being baptized in water (notice that Paul doesn't mention baptism in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 where he states the core of the Gospel) and a basic admission of sin, rather it is about admitting to God that you have broken His Law and trusting in Christ who paid the penalty of your sins on the Cross (the fact that He arose from the dead proves that He was indeed God and thus how the power to do what He promised), pledging your life to Him who redeemed you (which is essentially trusting Him with your life) and being sealed by the Holy Spirit who enables you change, who makes you into a new creation. In short it's all about trust: trust that God is the Lord whose commands you have broken, trust that Jesus is God who paid the price of your sins (ie. death) and therefore redeemed you, trust in Christ's promise to send the Holy Spirit who is God to those who trust in Him and trust in the Holy Spirit to both regenerate you and guide you and enable you to produce fruit that is pleasing to the Lord.
     
  15. DHK

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    The problem with you ONENESS is you neither understand the Bible, nor "my theology," which is derived directly from the Bible. I never said, "that if one just 'says' believe and confess," that they are saved. Can you point to where I have. Words don't save. Prayer doesn't save. Religious rites as baptism doesn't save. Faith and faith alone saves. Faith is not a word that you say. Whoever told you that!! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, is another way to put it. It is not the prayer that is said, it is the faith that is put in the Saviour, that may be expressed through prayer. Don't call the Holy Spirit of God a liar. That is a serious accusation. Remember the words of Jesus when he warned the Pharisees not to speak against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write the words of Paul, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." That is one of many verses that could be used. If you deny that salvation is through faith or belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, that is just the same as calling the Holy Spirit of God a liar. That is what He said isn't it? Believe and be saved. There is no baptism in there. The baptism followed after he was saved.

    For all the Old Testament examples that you gave, they all required one thing, and all had one thing in common: faith. When the blood was applied, they had to have faith that they were doing the right thing and that God would keep his promise. It was still faith in Jehovah that saved them. Faith, and faith alone.
    DHK

    [ July 16, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
  16. kathy56

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    Hi:

    Seems like ya'll have been chewing on this for awhile. So as a newbie I hope you won't mind be two-stepping in.

    Basically, your salvation involdes the redemption of the old self. The sinful nature within us. It is freely offered to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who obtained redemption for each of us by His own blood. Salvation in its broadest sense includes regeneration, justification, santification and glorification. But I don't think you are discussing all of that. There is not salavation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

    Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It was what Jesus was talking about in John 3:3-21 when he said "You must be born again." Nicodemus questioned him how can I go back into my Mother's womb. Well, he couldn't - he had to be born again - from above - this is not a human birth. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God in faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experience of grace.

    Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

    Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

    Santification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purpose, and is enable to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

    Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

    Now having said all that perhaps you can understand what salvation really is. The Bible says Satan himself believes in God and that one day every knee say bow before the throne of God and acknowledge him. I am not sure what the question is about blood, water and spirit.

    I do know that you can not pull out one Scripute and hold it above the whole body of Scripture and to declare it a doctrine. You must weigh it against all that God has said about salvation and reason as what is exactly being said in that particular Scripture.

    Here are some scripture verses about the process of salvation:
    Gen. 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6-2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14, 29; 3:3-21, 36; 5:24; 10:9, 28-29; 15:1-6; 17:17; Acts 2:21: 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31: 17:30-31: 20-32; Roman 1:16-18; 2:4; 3-23-25; 4:3ff; 5:8-10; 6;1-23, 8:1-18; 29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15: Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3-1ff:1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12, Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; James 2:14-26; I Peter 1:2-23: Revelation 3:20, 21:1, 22:5.

    God Bless!
    Kathy

    Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint
     
  17. ONENESS

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    The problem with you ONENESS is you neither understand the Bible, nor "my theology," which is derived directly from the Bible. I never said, "that if one just 'says' believe and confess," that they are saved. Can you point to where I have. Words don't save. Prayer doesn't save. Religious rites as baptism doesn't save. Faith and faith alone saves. Faith is not a word that you say. Whoever told you that!! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, is another way to put it. It is not the prayer that is said, it is the faith that is put in the Saviour, that may be expressed through prayer. Don't call the Holy Spirit of God a liar. That is a serious accusation. Remember the words of Jesus when he warned the Pharisees not to speak against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write the words of Paul, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." That is one of many verses that could be used. If you deny that salvation is through faith or belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, that is just the same as calling the Holy Spirit of God a liar. That is what He said isn't it? Believe and be saved. There is no baptism in there. The baptism followed after he was saved.

    For all the Old Testament examples that you gave, they all required one thing, and all had one thing in common: faith. When the blood was applied, they had to have faith that they were doing the right thing and that God would keep his promise. It was still faith in Jehovah that saved them. Faith, and faith alone.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]
    This is what I want to focus on for Now. I am in a hurry so I will get back to the rest latter.

    You are exactly right. The faith is the number one thing that saves. But what if they had faith and did not obey and never put the blood on the door post? Would they have been saved?

    God tells Isaac in Genesis 26:4-5 that Abrahams seed would be blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

    Faith is much more than a mental head trip. I goes far past that. Faith will lead to obeidence.

    God bless
     
  18. Chemnitz

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    So are you trying to say your works save you?
     
  19. ONENESS

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    So are you trying to say your works save you?</font>[/QUOTE]NOT AT ALL
     
  20. ONENESS

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    Your assuming the is a disernable amount of time between the two events.</font>[/QUOTE]Chemitz, could you please explain how one can be saved in the womb? Apart from if they die while in the mothers womb. Can you please explain how an infant can be saved when he is young and grow up die and go to heaven?

    It has always been my understanding that if a child is born and dies soon there-after that he/she will go to heaven. But if she is born and grows older than you are held accountable for what you know.
     

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