Believing on Jesus but not saved.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by John3v36, Oct 7, 2004.

  1. John3v36

    John3v36
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    In John 8:31 it says: Then Jesus said to those Jews which believed on him.

    in vs 44: Jesus say there father was the Devil.

    in vs 59: they tried to kill Christ.

    it looks like they Believing on Jesus but never got saved.
     
  2. Me2

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    Yet Jesus is also speaking to the many called of the father.

    He is speaking to the "current day" church.
    (ie., corinth carnal babes..)

    many people believe the same then as well as they believe today. they are all "called" of God the father.

    What really makes them mad is when Jesus mentions his statements regarding exclusion for the current age.

    "many called, few chosen".

    meaning few chosen today and "saved" in this current age.
    and many are called today and "saved" in the next age.

    you pick your doctrine. either youll get mad at Jesus statements regarding exclusivism for the current age and the few "saved".
    or you can get mad at the inclusive statements regarding those many called in this age yet are all saved in the next age.

    the flesh complains about either doctrine, yet both are true and hard to accept.
     
  3. Gup20

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    Jhn 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

    It looks like they didn't believe on Jesus afterall.
     
  4. Eric B

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    To understand this we must remember that many people in the New Testament, beginning with the ministry of Jesus Himself while still here, were hastily accepting Christ, but they did not understand what the purpose of His mission was. So they "believed" (John 8:31), but eventually their true fruits surfaced (v.37ff). These people "believed" and followed for the wrong reasons. Remember, Israel was looking for a Messiah for mostly political reasons, so many really did not understand His Gospel message—that they needed to be saved from sin; not the sin of the pagans, but their own sin. They still thought of themselves as the "good guys" waiting for God to put down the "bad guys", yet they were just as sinful as the ruthless pagans. They had their agenda, and Jesus showed that they were not really following Him, though they professed.
     
  5. Johnv

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    I disagree. John 8:31 was referring to the people of the Jewish faith who believed he was the Messiah. Vs 44 was referring to those who rejected Jesus as Messiah (this is not some kind of curse upon all Jewish people). Vs 59 again referrs to those who rejected Jesus as Messiah. But as we know, the Messiah is not limited only to the Jews, and in the same manner, "those to killed Christ" is not a limited to unbelieving Jews, but is a weight that every unbeliever must bear, until that weight is born by Jesus himself by those same people accepting his gift of salvation.
     
  6. dianetavegia

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    James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
     
  7. steaver

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    Right on track Eric.

    All of the Hebrews followed Moses out into the wilderness, but not all truly believed and were saved. Jesus healed all ten of the Lepers, but only one truly believed in Him. Jesus told this one that "thy faith hath made thee whole", but the other nine only received their health. They had no faith to receive the wholeness of salvation.

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
  8. SpiritualMadMan

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    Believing that Jesus 'exists' is not enough...

    Romans 10:9-10 indicates one must not only believe God raised Him from the dead but confess Him (Life Testimony - Greek for Testimony includes root for Martyr) as Lord...

    It's almost like James is saying you 'believe'... Whooppee-Do... Good for you... Not gonna help ya at all...

    More on the "Confess Him"... For many this comes down to being Water Baptized...

    And, in many countries, like some areas of India... A person can talk about being a Christian for years...

    But, it is when they submit to Water Batism that their families have a symbolic funeral...

    The Confession we are to have is not to be mere lip service but a life walk expressing Jesus as the undisputed ruling authority in one's life...
     
  9. 7-Kids

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    Mat 7
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves......21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  10. Gup20

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    Spiritual Mad Man - we must keep in mind that it is never BY works that we are saved... but BY faith we are saved. The outword confession is merely a reflection of the inward decision to believe. James 2 talks about demonstrating your faith by your actions. James 2 makes the case that if there is no outward reflection of the inward decision, can we say that the inward decision was real? For example, someone puts a gun to your head and you pee your pants... then that person shows you the gun is not real... you can say you knew it was fake but the wet stain on the front of your trousers testifies against you of your true belief.

    It is belief in Jesus as the Christ (the one come to die and be resurrected for our sin) that saves a soul... and confession is made as an outward demonstration of the inward belief. I believe what you are saying is on track as long as it is tempered with the qualification that we are saved through the faith, and not by the works. The works are certainly a necessary reflection of the Faith within us... but it is the Faith that matters - not the works.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
    Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    So then, our faith is PERFECTED through works - not the other way around! Meaning Faith comes and confession is made unto salvation. What does 'made perfect' mean? Perfect is a two pronged word - we think of perfect as 'without blemish' or pure, but it means more than that. It also means 'complete' and 'without lack'. We can see this is also the context of the word 'perect' given in James chapter 1:

    Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

    We are saved by faith, and faith is completed by corresponding action. It is still FAITH that saves us ultimately, not the works.
     
  11. Dan Stiles

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    Gup20, of course one could argue that it is not faith which saves, but grace which saves - through faith. IOW, the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ is salvific, your faith is simply your end of the conduit for that grace.

    Just throwing in some "food for thought."

    Dan
     
  12. 7-Kids

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    So just saying I beleive will not save you?
     
  13. gb93433

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    Just read the book of James and you will see the difference between a cognitive pseudo faith and a real genuine saving faith.

    Rememebr what the Jews called belief--the Shema. But a genuine saving faith is a faith in Jesus that produces works in accordance with a genuine saving faith--genuine faith in Christ, not just a statement of belief.

    I like to think of the illustration of genuine faith versus a statement of faith as like the man who wheeled a wheelbarrow across a tight wire across a deep gorge in front of a lot of people and then he asked the crowd, "How many think I can put someone in that wheelbarrow and make it across again." When he asked for how many all of them raised their hands. But when he asked, "Who will be next" none of them raised their hands.
     
  14. John3v36

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    So how would you tell the diffrence from the People in the wheelbarrow and the one just here for the show?
     
  15. Baptist Renegade

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    Jesus was speaking to a skeptical crowd and was quite direct and blunt in his words that they were lost in their sins. While he spake, there was a number (many, but not all JN 8:30) who believed on him. In Jn 8:31 and 32, Jesus directs his words to these new believers. He then returns his attention to the remainder of the unbelieving, skeptical crowd. Remember also that Jesus was on his way to the cross (Which these "New Believers" did not, could not understand)!
     
  16. billwald

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    The "saved ones" are "elect." <G>
     
  17. Claudia_T

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    In John Chapter 8 Jesus is teaching two basic principles... one is that we cannot be free unless we turn away from sin. Another is that the apostolic succession rests not upon the transmission of ecclesiastical authority, but upon our spiritual relationship with God, and we cannot have a true relationship with God if we choose to hang onto our sins.

    Among His hearers many were drawn to Him in faith, and to them He said, "if ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

    These words offended the Pharisees. The nation's long subjection to a foreign yoke, they disregarded, and angrily exclaimed, "We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest Thou, Ye shall be made free?" Jesus looked upon these men, the slaves of malice, whose thoughts were bent upon revenge, and sadly answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." They were in the worst kind of bondage,--ruled by the spirit of evil.

    Every soul that refuses to give himself to God is under the control of another power. He is not his own. He may talk of freedom, but he is in the most abject slavery. He is not allowed to see the beauty of truth, for his mind is under the control of Satan. While he flatters himself that he is following the dictates of his own judgment, he obeys the will of the prince of darkness. Christ came to break the shackles of sin-slavery from the soul. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" sets us "free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2.

    In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God.

    The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The divine law, to which we are brought into subjection, is "the law of liberty." James 2:12.

    The Pharisees had declared themselves the children of Abraham. Jesus told them that this claim could be established only by doing the works of Abraham. The true children of Abraham would live, as he did, a life of obedience to God. They would not try to kill One who was speaking the truth that was given Him from God. In plotting against Christ, the rabbis were not doing the works of Abraham. A mere lineal descent from Abraham was of no value. Without a spiritual connection with him, which would be manifested in possessing the same spirit, and doing the same works, they were not his children.

    This principle bears with equal weight upon a question that has long agitated the Christian world,--the question of apostolic succession. Descent from Abraham was proved, not by name and lineage, but by likeness of character. So the apostolic succession rests not upon the transmission of ecclesiastical authority, but upon spiritual relationship. A life actuated by the apostles' spirit, the belief and teaching of the truth they taught, this is the true evidence of apostolic succession. This is what constitutes men the successors of the first teachers of the gospel.

    Jesus denied that the Jews were children of Abraham. He said, "Ye do the deeds of your father." In mockery they answered, "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." These words, in allusion to the circumstances of His birth, were intended as a thrust against Christ in the presence of those who were beginning to believe on Him. Jesus gave no heed to the base insinuation, but said, "If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God."

    Their works testified of their relationship to him who was a liar and a murderer. "Ye are of your father the devil," said Jesus, "and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stood not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. . . . Because I say the truth, ye believe Me not." John 8:44, 45, R. V. The fact that Jesus spoke the truth, and that with certainty, was why He was not received by the Jewish leaders. It was the truth that offended these self-righteous men. The truth exposed the fallacy of error; it condemned their teaching and practice, and it was unwelcome. They would rather close their eyes to the truth than humble themselves to confess that they had been in error. They did not love the truth. They did not desire it, even though it was truth.

    ----------

    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.christiangraphics.org
     
  18. Claudia_T

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    I think I should re-word my former post.

    You need to realize who THE ELECT really are!

    Was this promise made to the Jews alone? "Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Genesis 12:1-3. If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:19.

    Why did God make His promise to the seed of Abraham? "Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." Gen. 26:5.

    What will the children of Abraham do? "Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39.

    When the Jews claimed to the "The Children of Abraham" Jesus said:

    John 8:
    31: Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    33: They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    34: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    35: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
    37: I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    38: I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    39: They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
    40: But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
    41: Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    42: Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    43: Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Jesus informed the Jews that IT DID NOT MATTER WHAT THEIR LINEAGE WAS... as long as they were transgressing God's Law ... living in SIN... claiming to love God yet planning to sin and murder His Son, Jesus... they weren't any more the "children of Abraham" than were the heathen down the street! The Jews who rejected Christ, and ANYBODY WHO CLAIMS TO BE A CHRISTIAN TODAY that doesnt keep God's commandments, are NOT the children of Abraham! NOT AT ALL! They are NOT THE CHOSEN... they are NOT THE ELECT! They are lost sinners, just like anybody else who have refused to do what God clearly told them to do!

    1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    1Jn:3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Who are the children of Abraham? "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:29.

    1Cor:7:19: "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." -In other words, to God, circumcision means nothing and uncircumcision means nothing, but what MATTERS is that you keep the commandments of God!

    WHO ARE THE REMNANT according to the Bible?

    Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    ANYBODY can be "the elect" ... your lineage doesnt matter, if you CHOOSE to turn to God and obey His commandments!
     
  19. Seth3

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    And the two commandments are to Love God the lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength and the second is like it (reflecting His desire for us) to love your neighbor as yourself (do unto others)

    Which on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    The only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in love. Anything that is not from faith is sin.

    Those who have "the Testimony of Jesus Christ" are those who have the Spirit of prophecy because they are one and the same.

    God Bless

    Seth3
     
  20. Claudia_T

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    I get very passionate about these Christians who view themselves as "the elect" when they think it doesnt matter how they live or what they do. They think they can disobey God's Word and are just "automatically" the elect, "the chosen ones" "the special ones".. and THIS is exactly the idea Jesus was warning against in John Chapter 8. It is one of the biggest deceptions in the Christian Church in our day.

    "We are the children of Abraham" "We are the elect" "We are the SAVED"... but Jesus taught if you do not do the WORKS of Abraham, then you are NOT any different than the average sinner out there no matter what you claim to be.


    If anyone would like to read the last part of a short article I wrote one day about "the Elect: you can go here:
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/theelect.htm
     

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