Between John 19:31 and 42 ...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    But BEFORE these 21 hours, there

    between John 19:30 and 31 lay
    the 3 hours between Mark 15:34-40 and 42;
    the 3 hours between Matthew 27:46-56 and 57;
    the 3 hours between Luke 23:44b-49 and 50.

    And after all things in these, verses mentioned, and after
    “Jesus had cried with a loud voice, Father I commend my spirit: and having said thus, gave up the spirit … all the people that came together to that sight, also all his acquaintance (who) remained standing afar off, and the women who followed Him from Galilee, watching closely the things that happened and having witnessed these things themselves, TURNED BACK and breast-beating, LEFT.”

    Between John 19:30 and 31 lay 3 hours after “the ninth hour”—
    the same 3 hours between Mark 15:34-40 and 42;
    the same 3 hours between Matthew 27:46-56 and 57;
    the same 3 hours between Luke 23:44b-49 and 50.
     
    #2 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Dec 15, 2013
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  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    The effect of the above bare facts was

    that Mark 15:42, "And now when the even was come / evening had come..." /

    when AFTER sunset NIGHT .....

    WAS CORRUPTED into

    "as evening APPROACHED" / "late noon"

    when BEFORE sunset DAYLIGHT.
    .
    SATISFIED?

    HAPPY?

    SMUG?!

    "The LORD mingled a stupefying spirit which the people's stalwarts passed between them: they have caused the land to err in every work therein as a drunkard staggers in his vomit." Isaiah 19:14.


     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    In each case, the definite article is missing with the word Sabbath showing it was not the seventh day Sabbath but the high sabbath or the 15th that preceded the regular weekly Sabbath in the 28 A.D. Thus, 6pm Thursday night Jesus was buried which was the first evening while Friday evening at 6 pm. was the second evening and Saturday at 6 pm was the third eving with Christ raising between 5:30 am and 6 a.m Sunday moring was the resurrection.

    The 9th hour to the evening on Thursday consisted of the first day, while Friday at 6 am to 6pm was the second day and then Saturday 6am to 6pm was the third day.
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    You build your entire assumption on the ABSENCE (‘argumentum a / ex silentio’) of the Definite Article where in Greek it usually but BY NO RULE ALWAYS*, should be expected, like in front of the NAME of things like the days of the week, e.g., “on the first Day of the week”, ‘TEHI miai sabbatohn’.
    [* J.P.J. van Rensburg, chapter 14, QuoteOften but not alwaysQE. …. for the first basics, the best Greek Grammar you’ll find.]

    The one place or context or circumstance where the ‘unofficial rule’* to have the Definite Article before a name of something in effect falls away, is in the case of IDIOM and behold THE IDIOM AS NAME in ‘sabbatohn’. Literally it would be ‘of (the) sabbaths’; but as metaphoric name ‘sabbatohn’ without the Definite Article names “the Sabbath Day”.

    Maybe an example or two of names of different days and ‘sabbaths’ with no article will do ….

    Matthew 12:2; 24:20 Mark 6:2; 16:9 Luke 6:1,6; 14:1; 23:54 John 5:9,10,16; 7:22,23,23; 9:14 Acts [1:12]; 13:27; 15:21; 17:2; 18:4 Colossians 2:17.

    Then all of a sudden there’s nothing more to say.
     
    #5 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2014
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Oh yes there is much more to say. There are many different types of Sabbaths (days, year) and so the absence of the article usually indicates either some other type of Sabbath is in view rather than the seventh day Sabbath OR all types are in view without distinction.
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    I gave you all instances in the New Testament. Show me what you mean at the hand of examples, please.

     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Mt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

    No definite article because prohibition is applicable to all Sabbath days and not merely the seventh day Sabbath. The same can be said for Matthew 24:20 and all other references you give that merely speak of prohibitions which are generally applicable to any day designated as a "sabbath."
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Denied.

    The prohibitions for the different 'sabbaths' were different, Very different and very clear.

    Leviticus 23:3 and 23:38 EXEMPTS "the Sabbath/ Sabbaths OF THE LORD from the <prohibitions> applicable to 'sabbaths' "according to their seasons", "proclaimed by YOU"--the Israelites themselves.

    <Prohibitions> are not what make the 'sabbaths' different or the same. THE REASON OF AND FOR 'sabbaths' put them apart in the first place. All differences or similarities further depend on the original REASON/S.

    In Christ they all came together. In Christ all 'sabbaths' were abolished just like all 'sabbaths' came together in Christ in his RESURRECTION from the dead "IN THE SABBATH'S FULLNESS" of fulfillment in "Christ The All in all fulfilling FULLNESS OF GOD."


    Resurrected Jesus not from the dead there would not have been any sabbath; resurrected He not "on The Seventh Day GOD THUS CONCERNING SPAKE ... BY THE SON ... IN THESE LAST DAYS", there would not have been any sabbath--WHAT THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD.

     
  10. prophet

    prophet
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    This^^^. Not that hard. He was crucified on Wed.
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    I know who you are. You are from South Africa, or your parents were from SA.

    And you are or used to be a SDA. Now you have become a rebellious SDA follower of Fred Coulter, or have absconded and become a COGotter.

    I told you I have finished with you.

    Do not try contaminating BB with your stuff. Here you won't last a week.


     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    "Behold a man named Joseph!" "Behold there was a great earthquake!" et al ... 'KAI IDOU', literally, 'See!' as opened the blind's eye to see a wonderland!
    So was it for me, reading the Gospel, while I read Schilder.
    Here is what everybody has been reading, but few realised they read!
    "My hour is come"; "Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me RIGHT WITH me! ON THE TABLE! And TRULY, the Son of Man GOES: AS IT WAS DETERMINED ... HE IS, BETRAYED!"
    We confess the Faith of Jesus ... "Who is descended into hell."
    Yes! Jesus' incarnation already is his descent into hell begun; his last passover and final descent into the abyss, STARTS HERE: Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,30 1Corinthians 11:23.
    It ENDS, HERE: Mark 15:33,34 Matthew 27:50 Luke 23:46 John 19:30, "FINISHED!"
    AT THIS MOMENT, "the graves opened", and "the veil was rent" and the most holy place of the sanctuary, "THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, WAS OPENED", as all hell was EMPTIED and Jesus "yielded up the spirit" and "commended" it into his Father's hands.
    HERE, says Klaas Schilder, and CONFIRMS, the Apostolicum, Christ EXITED his Suffering. “The death of death in the death of Christ.” (John Owen) NOW, "Christ in it - HELL - TRIUMPHED!" Colossians 2:15.
    After THIS, the EXALTATION of Christ, immediately, BEGINS.
    Who would have thought, hell was "in the Kingdom of my Father" WHERE Jesus overcame it and FROM SATAN'S HAND, wrested "the keys of hell / death and of life"?!
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    5.2.1.2.
    Afternoon After Christ’s Death –
    The Nature and Consequences of Events Which Marked the End of this Day

    5.2.1.2.1.1.
    Supernatural Events
    “The miraculous signs which accompanied our Lord’s death – the darkness from twelve o’clock to three, the earthquake, the rending of the temple veil … struck myriads with awe and astonishment, and perhaps smoothed the way for our Lord’s burial in Joseph’s tomb, without opposition or objection.” Ryle’s Expository Thoughts, 4, p.326d
    Although we differ greatly and in almost every respect with Ryle on how these “signs” effected “our Lord’s burial”, p.327a
    we would stress our agreement with him that these phenomena eventually contributed to a most important fact, the fact that Jesus was buried “without opposition or objection”. In order to have had this result, these “signs” had had to be of singular nature and of immense effect. The phenomena which accompanied Jesus’ death, seldom, if ever, receive due consideration in commentaries. No exception of greater significance though, can be found in Schilder’s Trilogy. Part Three, Christ Crucified, Chapter 16, translated by Henry Zylstra, Paideia Press
    “In all Lenten literature known to me there is no work comparable
    to the trilogy of Klaas Schilder.”
    Luke records a darkness that lasted from noon till 3 p.m., that is, for the last three of the six hours Jesus lived in death’s agony on the cross. Three hours, in the Gospels’ record of Jesus’ crucifixion, were exactly of three hours’ duration in modern time reckoning. The Jewish light day always had twelve hours, all year round. That implied a shorter hour in middle winter than in middle summer. But Passover coincided with beginning of springtime, exactly the fourteenth and fifteenth days after the first new moon after equinox – that is, Passover coincided with the first night of full moon after equinox. “It is a night to solemnly observe”. The hours would be of equal length day and night, the days being as long as the nights. So three hours – exactly – were left of day when of a sudden the strange darkness ended. An eclipse of the sun could not have caused the darkness, because it was full moon, the learned say. Ryle, on Mark 15:33-38 describes the phenomena as “miraculous” – without explanation. If without explanation, it also would occur without warning. It would not have set in gradually. It was there like lightning strikes – just darkness, not here or there, but “over all the land”. Without explanation and without warning, it had to be without degree. It was darkness totally, perfect blackness. There was no reflected or deflected light. There were no lights lit because it was day at its brightest when the darkness fell like a smothering blanket. The knife in the hand of the priest coming down on the first paschal offering went astray in the fright of sudden darkness. Every priest was dumbfounded, blinded, terrified. (It was of the kind of darkness of the fifth Apocalyptic plague. “Now the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their sores, and repented not of their deeds.” Rv.16:10-11) The after effect this darkness caused, would not be shrugged off in short time. It lasted at least till some life returned into them and the Jews are recorded to have asked Pilate that the crucified be removed.
    Then, on the “ninth hour”, just as suddenly as it came, the darkness was light again. But this was not light as of the sun. Again it was light like lightning strikes. Not dawn towards light, but blinding, painful, sudden blast of light. (“And the fourth angel poured his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.” Rv.16:9) This was the light in which man now, as he gradually moved his hands from his eyes, beheld the result of the darkness and earthquake. Man was as perplexed and as disconsolate by this light as he was by the darkness. It was no light given him to go about his business as usual. It was light that infiltrated the remotest corner of the darkness of his heart. As the priests slowly began to see, they felt the earth and heavens tremble and roar from without and from within. As the veil, that hindered light on the holiest of all and seat of mercy, was rent as by the hand of God, the golden cover shone in full splendour and public eye. Nothing more humiliating could happen to this proud priesthood.
    “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept, arose.” Mt.27:50-52

    Wenham notes, “According to The Gospel of the Nazaraeans “the lintel of the temple of wondrous size collapsed” at that time.” Easter Enigma, p.71-79,6
    (“And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple in heaven, from the throne, saying, it is done. And there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.” Rv.16:16-18)
    “The tearing curtain and the exposure of the Holy of Holies at the time of the earthquake which followed Jesus’ death, would have profoundly disturbed (the Jewish authorities) and reawakened their anxieties [of] an uprising by the people).” Wenham p.71/72
    They sacrificed despite the rent veil and exposed ark of the covenant. And they sacrificed like they would again many years later when the Romans would destroy their temple. They sacrificed till the blood could not be contained while confusion could not be greater. They could find no time to think of the crucified.
    Under these circumstances it is sure the Jewish leaders would have been “profoundly disturbed.” But exactly their disturbance would have made them forget about an uprising or about Jesus. The people also would have been upset by the calamities, and would not have worried about an uprising for which they in any case would have been too disorganised by reason of the “signs”. Tents of visitors’ attending Passover reached between white washed graves on the rocky slopes surrounding the city walls. An earthquake that “rent the rocks” and opened the graves would have caused havoc. Calamity and consternation were boundless. Damage and injury were immense. Survival must have been every one’s sole impulse.
    “This gospel [of Peter] says that there was great disquiet among the people at the crucifixion of Jesus and at the “great signs” which accompanied it and that this murmuring of the people made the elders afraid.” 72b

    The Gospel of Peter gives an absolutely distorted picture of Christ’s crucifixion which in every respect is unreliable. We cannot approve “that some of its independent features may represent genuine historical reflections.” It is specifically in these “independent feature” where this document looses grip on truth. However, the section Wenham here must have had in mind, 15 has no word that “the elders” were “made afraid” by the peoples’ “disquiet” and “murmuring”. It simply says, “They (the people) were disquieted and in fear that the sun may have gone down while He still lived”. In section 23 this “Gospel” even continues: “Then the Jews rejoiced and gave the body to Joseph to bury because he saw all the good things done by Him”.
     

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