Beyond Calvin and Arminius, both were partly correct

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alfred Persson., Jan 19, 2013.

  1. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    God is Omniscient and therefore knew the names of His elect and non-elect before creating anything:

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4 KJV)

    Therefore foreknowing them was to "know them ahead of, in front of" everything else. This special knowing put them in a special place in God's Omniscience ahead of, "in front of," "before" everything that exists.

    Therefore, because God loves His elect, before they did anything good or bad, before they existed...He predestined them unto salvation and their names can never be blotted out of the book of life.


    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    (Rom 8:28-31 KJV)

    So God elected some unconditionally unto salvation, He predestined they can never be lost. A book containing their names was written before creation---the corollary to this being plainly stated:

    ...they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...(Rev 17:8 KJV)

    Because God has predestined these unto salvation they can never be lost or blotted out of the book of life.

    HOWEVER, it is an INFERENCE God therefore Reprobated to damnation all He didn't elect...that is, REPROBATION is supposed to be the corollary of ELECTION.


    That INFERENCE does not follow as the offer of salvation is repeatedly made to everyone who ever lived.

    IN other words, the THEORY God Reprobates is hasty generalization fallacy---there are three groups, not just two.

    We see that fact proved by the gospel offer of salvation being extended to everyone who wants to be saved:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    (Joh 3:15-17 KJV)



    God's offer of salvation to "whosoever believes" is not a sham, the possibility of the entire world being saved through His Son is genuine.


    DEDUCTION is far superior to INFERENCE, the latter not necessarily following from the premises.

    To illustrate, it does not follow from a lifeguard's saving someone drowning, that he thereby downed all the others. Especially the "inference" is wrong if he is seen explaining to the others how they can also be saved.


    Therefore we have THREE GROUPS, not just two.

    1)Those predestined to be saved;
    2)Those who choose to be saved;
    3)Those who choose to be lost.



    The Jews of Jesus' day called this "in between group" the "middle" or "intermediate" people---they are the "undecided" as it were.

    R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year, one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death; the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death. Said R. Abin, What text tells us this? — Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. ‘Let them be blotted out from the book — this refers to the book of the wicked. ‘Of life — this is the book of the righteous. ‘And not be written with the righteous’ — this is the book of the intermediate. R. Nahman b. Isaac derives it from here: And if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written,27 ‘Blot me, I pray thee’ — this is the book of the wicked. ‘Out of thy book’ — this is the book of the righteous. ‘Which thou has written’ — this is the book of the intermediate.

    It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate. The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life; the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence. The intermediate will go down to ***Gehinnom

    and squeal and rise again, as it says, And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name and I will answer them. Of them, too, Hannah said, The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up. Beth Hillel, however, say: He that abounds in grace inclines [the scales] towards grace, and of them David said, I love that the Lord should hear my voice and my supplication, and on their behalf David composed the whole of the passage, I was brought low and he saved me.

    Talmud - Mas. Rosh HaShana 17a-b

    ***Jesus spoke of Hades and Gehenna differently, Gehenna being much worse than Hades indicating He didn't confuse them as the same place...as the above quote seems to do.



    These MIDDLING PEOPLE could decide either way and had to be allowed to make their own choice.

    God didn't predestine them to salvation because that would subvert their free will. The gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29.)

    This proves God certainly knew precisely who they were and allowing them to exercise their free will does not imply He didn't know what their choices were. The offer of salvation for all who repent and believe is real, not fakery.

    If they only would have it, God would heal them:

    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15 KJV)

    God didn't lie to Cain:
    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:7 KJV)

    This context teaches God didn't Elect anyone who didn't love God, so neither was their free will subverted:

    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:28-29 KJV)

    [This does not contradict unconditional election as it is not said God predestined these because they love Him. ]

    That is the major purpose of Hades, to save as many of the "intermediate people" as possible from Gehenna. Punishment for sin brings a certain clarity to the issue, just how serious it is.


    So it is their names alone that can be added to or blotted out from the book of life. Not those of the elect, who are predestined to salvation.


    Apologetically speaking, this view is far superior to Calvinism or Armianism....not only is it true to all of scripture, it refutes the charge of evil by God.


    4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4 KJV)
     
  2. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    I certainly agree that Calvin didnt get EVERYTHING wrong.
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    there is something inherently wrong with your logic circuits. some gates will not complement the others.
     
  5. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    Prove it--talk is very cheap.

    On Judgment Day there are three groups standing before God:

    1)Those He predestined unto salvation.
    2)Those who chose to be saved.
    3)Those who chose to be lost.

    That there are three and not just two is deducible from God's predestining ONE GROUP the Elect to salvation (Rom 8:29) and from His offering salvation to every on earth (John 3:16ff), ONE Group then believes and is saved and ONE Group who do not believe and are not saved.

    =Three groups.


    As the context of Psalm 69:28 makes clear, Gill's commentary notwithstanding, these names WERE in the book but because of their sin, are now blotted out::

    27 Hold them accountable for all their sins! Do not vindicate them!
    28 May their names be deleted from the scroll of the living! Do not let their names be listed with the godly! (Psa 69:27-28 NET)

    Therefore there are THREE GROUPS of Names in reference to the book of life:

    1)Names that cannot be blotted out written down before the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8)

    2)Names that can be blotted out written in after the foundation of the world.

    3)Names that were deleted from the book of life.


    These three groups are evident in Christ's teaching:

    The FIRST GROUP are those called "My brethren" in vs. 40 that reign with Christ as Kings and Priests for a 1,000 years who met Christ in the air during the first resurrection either by being raised from the dead or, if alive at His coming---changed in twinkling of an eye at the last trump and raptured to meet Him in the air to be forever with the LORD when the earth is reaped (1 Th 4:13-17; 1 Cor 15:51f; Rev 20:4-6; 14:16-17 cp Mark 13:24-27). Because these believed and obeyed in this life, they will not come into judgment but have passed over from death into life: (Joh 5:24 ) Hence the judgment of the sheep and the goats does not concern them.


    The SECOND GROUP are those judged to be sheep by their works and they are saved.

    The THIRD GROUP are those judged to be goats by their works and so are not saved:


    31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
    32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
    33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
    36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
    37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
    38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
    39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
    40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
    41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
    43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
    44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
    45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
    46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
    (Mat 25:31-46 NKJ)



    The THREE GROUPS in Rev c. 20

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    (Rev 20:4-5 NKJ)


    The FIRST RESURRECTION GROUP who met Christ in the air during the first resurrection either by being raised from the dead, OR if alive at His coming---changing in twinkling of an eye at the last trump and raptured to meet Him in the air to be forever with the LORD when the earth is reaped (1 Th 4:13-17; 1 Cor 15:51f; Rev 20:4-6; 14:16-17 cp Mark 13:24-27). Because these believed and obeyed Christ in this life they will not come into the judgment before the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11) because they have passed over from death into life: (Joh 5:24).


    The judgment before the great white concerns all the rest of mankind, those who entered the millennial kingdom and were saved, and those who entered and later joined Satan in another world wide rebellion and were lost. Also all the dead are raised up and judged.

    anyone not found written in the Book of Life = THE OTHER TWO GROUPS:

    The SECOND GROUP written in the book of life group therefore saved.
    The THIRD GROUP "not found written in the Book of Life" therefore not saved.

    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (Rev 20:13-15 NKJ)


    So is it deducible there are three groups of mankind on Judgment Day, not only two.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    neither calvinism/Arminianism as a means to theologically understand the bible are 100% accurate, for neither Calvin nor jacobus were Apostles, but as regarding to actual Sotierology from the Bible, would say calvin got it "more right!"

    IF one holds to the concepts of Imputed/origianl Sin from the effects of the fall of Adam, then all sinners saved would be by the model of calvin, not Arminus!
     
  7. Robert William

    Robert William
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    Sovereign election

    Alfred, Amen, God hates some babies and loves others, and that's before they do anything good or bad. YHWH does what He wants and is not to be questioned. :)
     
  8. Robert William

    Robert William
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    :thumbsup:

    Amen great insight! I think I'm going to like it here. It's hard to understand why so many need to hold on to their free will idol.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Alfred, there are not three groups --only two. Read Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep will be put on the King's right, and the goats will be put to his left.

    Verse 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

    Verse 41 : 'Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
     
  10. TrevorL

    TrevorL
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    Greetings Alfred,

    My view is that God, even before the creation, knows who will be saved. But this then seems to be developed into the idea that God is arbitrary in His selection and that some will be saved no matter what sins they commit because they have been elected. I found a two-page article that describes the two extremes, and the difficulty posed by some of the arguments that have occupied the minds of many.

    He gave the following summary at the end and I would tentatively agree with this summary:.
    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  11. TrevorL

    TrevorL
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    Greetings again Alfred,

    There has not been a response to my previous Post. I am not sure if the forum members are satisfied with the summary that I supplied, or consider it completely out of line. It is a subject that I have not considered at length, except to say that I have always believed in free will. I can accept that God knows beforehend the choice I will make, but this doe not compel me to make this choice. I was waiting to see what response the summary would receive, but for my own part I was happy with the article and the summary. I decided to Post the whole article below, written in 1946 by a UK writer and speaker.
    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Either man still has a true free Will reamining to him after the fall, or does not...

    I see the biblical answer as being 'does not"
     

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