Bible Facism and KJVO

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Orvie, Feb 16, 2004.

  1. Orvie

    Orvie
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    This topic was "inspired"(not in the sense Ripplinger claimed)by willie when he said I was a "Bible rummager" for liking the KJV's rendering of 1 Peter 1:2, and yet a MV proponent at the same time.
    I respect those who only use as a preference the KJV, but there are some of the KJVO persuasion, who are "Bible facist", they think that God just couldn't get things right until 1611! That God is limited to speak to His children in the year 2004, in a translation made by biased Anglican translators, authorized by a king with questionable moral character, that started in 1604 and completed in 1611. They are "Bible facist" because they think that this priviledge is only for English speaking people, for if you want a Final Authority, and you do not speak English, well too bad. You would have to either learn English (old at that), or translate the AV1611 or KJV1769 into their language, instead of going where the "alleged" Final Authority of the "Bible facist" got their same Bible from (MSS and formerly translations diligently compared and revised). For the Bible facist, 2+2=6 :eek: i.e. their logic doesn't float. I think Bible facism is closely related to what Dr Ed called "Polytransphobia". aka Nehushtan Pickled Version Sect [​IMG]
     
  2. Terry_Herrington

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  3. emvjr

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    I am attempting to find some facts and information. I must admit, I do not know Greek or Hebrew, in fact spanish gave me a fight for 2 years and it won. English is my tongue/language. What I'm looking for is information on WHERE TO FIND history on Westcott and Hort; what mss were used to translate the many versions that have come out since the KJV was published. I have many little pieces of information regarding where the KJV came from (TR, 5245 pieces of extant mss,etc).
    I don't desire to enter a literary argument with some respondents I have just read. I do thank you for any suggestions. Ed
     
  4. BrianT

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    I would be happy to help you or anyone else in this area. I own many books written by them, and I am in the process of scanning them and putting them online at the Westcott and Hort Resource Centre ( http://www.westcotthort.com ). I you have any specific questions or would like me to look up anything in their books, please let me know.

    Brian
     
  5. Pastor KevinR

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    Hey! I'm a Recovering Bible Facist, too! Is there a support group anywhere? :eek:
     
  6. RaptureReady

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    Why would anyone trust a catholic and someone who denies the value of the Bible to write a Bible for us?
     
  7. Pastor KevinR

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    Would you be more specific, please?
     
  8. Alcott

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    And who do you trust? Baby-christening, Baptist-jailing Anglicans?
     
  9. tinytim

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    No he must be talking about Erasmus.
     
  10. Anti-Alexandrian

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    I think(KNOW) Bible Agnosticism is related to "PolytransISM".

    AKA:the DEAD Egyptian Mummy sect....

    [ February 18, 2004, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Anti-Alexandrian ]
     
  11. RaptureReady

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    Would you be more specific, please? </font>[/QUOTE]Sure, he are some quotes from these guys.

    Did not believe in the miracles of the Bible Aug. 11th, 1847 - Westcott: "I never read an account of a miracle (in Scripture?) but I seem instinctively to feel its improbability, and discover some want of evidence in the account of it." (Life, Vol.I, p.52).

    Did not believe in the infallibility of the scriptures. - Westcott to Hort in 1860: "1 reject the word infallibility of Holy Scripture overwhelming." Hort to Lightfoot in 1860: "If you make a decided conviction of the absolute infallibility of the N. T., I fear I could not join you, even if you were willing to forget your fears about the origin of the Gospels." (Life, Vol.I, p.207).

    Westcott and Hort were clearly Anti-protestant (pro-Catholic sympathizers) Hort: "I think I mentioned to you before Campbell's book on the Atonement, which is invaluable as far as it goes; but unluckily he know nothing except Protestant theology." (Life, Vol.I, p.322).

    Believed in the worship of Mary - Hort: "I am very far from pretending to understand completely the ever renewed vitality of Mariolatry. ...I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-worship and Jesus-worship' have very much in common in their causes and their results." (Westcott compelled his wife Sarah Louisa to take the name Mary in addition to her given name.)

    Believed in the sacraments (sacrifices) 1848 July 6th - Hort: "One of the things, I think, which shows the falsity of the Evangelical notion of this subject (baptism), is that it is so trim and precise...no deep spiritual truths of the Reason are thus logically harmonious and systematic...the pure Romish view seems to me nearer, and more likely to lead to, the truth than the Evangelical...the fanaticism of the bibliolaters, among whom reading so many 'chapters' seems exactly to correspond to the Romish superstition of telling so many dozen beads on a rosary...still we dare not forsake the Sacraments, or God will forsake us...I am inclined to think that no such state as 'Eden' (I mean the popular notion) ever existed, and that Adam's fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendants" (Life, Vol.I, pp.76-78).
     
  12. BrianT

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    First, you added the words "in Scripture". Second, Westcott is only mentioning his natural tendency to find miracles difficult to believe - he is not saying he doesn't believe in them, just that they are difficult for him (at this time, when he was 22 years old). Third, 12 years later he preached a series of sermons and published a book entitled "Characteristics of the Gospel Miracles" in which he affirms all the miracles in scripture, and their importance in revealing attributes of Christ.

    Your reference is for the first quote only, what is the reference for the second quote? The first quote is butchered and context shows the exact opposite. The whole quote is: "All I hold is, that the more I learn, the more I am convinced that fresh doubts come from my own ignorance, and that at present I find the presumption in favour of the absolute truth--I reject the word infallibility--of Holy Scripture overwhelming. Of course I feel difficulties which at present I cannot solve, and which I never hope to solve."

    Here Westcott affirms that any doubts that arise in his mind are not because scripture is wrong, but because of his own imperfection. Rather, he finds the presumption in favour of "absolute truth" of scripture to be overwhelming, but he still doesn't perfectly understand it all yet. In other words, although he disliked the term "infallibility" for some reason, he still accepted the absolute truth of scripture, but wasn't an arrogant know-it-all about it.

    I don't yet have Hort's "Life and Letters", so I can't examine this quote in context. Given the fact that most quotes are ripped out of context, I suspect this one is as well. But it should still be noted that: 1. nothing in this quote says Hort was pro-Catholic/anti-Protestant, he only expresses his disappointment that Campbell doesn't know Catholic theology. I have some Mormon friends, who I witness to occassionally. There are a few books that I like that are good in and of themselves, but the authors are weak or unknowledgeable about Mormon theology - when witnessing to Mormons, I prefer to use books that are written by authors that actually know Mormon theology and thus have points that make Mormons think instead of just laugh at. 2. Westcott and Hort, being Anglicans, are sort of "in between" Catholics and Protestants. To Catholics, Anglicans have a strong Protestant flavour. To most Protestants, Anglicans have a strong Catholic flavour. Being Anglicans, Westcott and Hort disagreed with both to some extent.

    Again, I am skeptical that this quote is in context. First, no one who worships Mary is going to call it "Mariolatry", which is a combination of "Mary" and "idolatry". Second, even you included the portion of the qoute where Hort says he doesn't undertand why Mariolatry has "ever renewed vitality". Third, Mary-worship and Jesus-worship DOES have much in common - that's why we Baptists object to it!

    Yes, Anglicans believe in sacraments. Westcott and Hort were Anglicans. As were the KJV translators. ;)

    Brian
     
  13. ScottEmerson

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    Nice work, Brian.
     
  14. tinytim

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    If people are twisting and lieing about W/H then who is behind the lies?

    Could it be SATAN?
    Could be.

    And if Satan, the father of lies, is attacking a person, then that person must be doing something right.

    Just maybe W/H doesn't = Satan.
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    So some KJVO, in an attempt to discredit W/H and speak evil of good translations of the Word into English, show their own paucity of morality and character.

    Sad. Let those who hold that God's Word is MORE than a single Jacobean translation (and subsequent major changes) try to avoid that same spirit of attack and acrimony.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    How exactly is a KJVO person criticizing anything catholic? Erasmus was a humanist-catholic-priest.
     
  17. SpiritWalker

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    I too want to thank you Brian. On face value, the misquotes attributed to Westcott and Hort might indeed damage their credibility, which seemingly was the intent. There is basic intellectual dishonesty inherent in misquoting a man's words to discredit his work. Such a measure does much to damage any cause.

    If a contested position can not be held with complete integrity, it must not be held at all. I accuse no one, but take a lesson for myself to check and verify sources for the opinions I hold.

    I would not want to endanger others by building a theological house on a cracked foundation.

    SpiritWalker
     
  18. BrianT

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    No problem - so many of the Westcott/Hort quotes are so out of context, and very few people have the resources to verify them. If anyone ever wants me to look at other quotes, just let me know. I have many of W/H's books and can do the digging for you.
     
  19. RaptureReady

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    Thanks for offering, here is some more since you didn't like the year 1847, here are some 12+ years later.

    1860 May 5th - Westcott to Hort: "at present I find the presumption in favour of the absolute truth - I reject the word infallibility - of Holy Scripture overwhelming." (Life, Vol.I, p.207).

    1865 Oct. 17th - Hort: "I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-worship and 'Jesus'-worship have very much in common in their causes and their results." (Life, Vol.II, p.50).

    This is were Johnv got his belief.
    1890 Mar. 4th - Westcott: "No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a_literal history - I could never understand how any one reading them with open eyes could think they did - yet they disclose to us a Gospel. So it is probably elsewhere."
     
  20. BrianT

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    I like the year 1847 just fine. [​IMG]

    You already posted the first two, and I already responded to them - why are you posting them again? But I'll still look the third one tonight when I get home and examine context, etc.
     

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