Biblical sufficiency

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jan 9, 2008.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    I have been in a discussion recently with a good friend of mine who does not see eye to eye with me on the topic of wine in the Bible.

    He kept citing his "authorities" that argue for the total abstinence position.
    It was impossible to make his point without third party "authorities" defining terms and even that just confused the matter worse.

    He had studied very much on the topic and I do not question his sincerity but I have to say that it only strengthened my beliefs.

    I realized this: the position of moderation is the only position that you can come up with ONLY WITH THE BIBLE.

    The contrary MUST have extra Biblical sources to redefine certain words throughout the Bible.

    It is so incredibly simple when you just take the Bible as true.
     
  2. Dale-c

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    Here is a sermon from sermonaudio.com that shows how clearly and simple the doctrine is when you just take the Bible as it is. No need for complex wordplay. It is just simple as it is.
     
  3. TCGreek

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    Dale-c,

    1. I glad you're able to see that it takes an extrabiblical position to come up with total abstinence.

    2. People are not willing to let the Scripture speak for itself. When we allow Scripture to speak for itself, total abstinence is totally absent.
     
  4. Dale-c

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    In my discussion he kept bringing up other sources that didn't jive with what the Bible says.

    He claimed superior research etc but it just doesn't add up.
     
  5. HankD

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    Hi Dale,

    There is a valid NT Scripture for the practice of total abstinence:

    Romans 14
    19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
    20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
    21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
    22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
    23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

    In this passage it has to do with meat offered to idols but the principle of offending the weak brethren is the same:

    1 Corinthians 8
    8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
    9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
    10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
    11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
    12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
    13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
    In fact there are two reasons:

    First: For the sake of the brethren. Your freedom may be the sentence of destruction for your brother who knows and sees you

    20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
    21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.​

    Because he may do so out of his weakness rather than his faith.​

    Secondly for yourself: why is it you need to be convinced?
    If you are convinced from the Scripture and the Spirit then you have done well.​

    But, if you drink wine out of any reason other than faith then it is a sin:​

    23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

    Perhaps it would be better for you not to have these kinds of conversations with those who believe otherwise concerning the use of wine.


    HankD​
     
    #5 HankD, Jan 9, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2008
  6. Dale-c

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    Hank, I totally agree that total abstinence in GOOD for some people in certain situations.
    My dad is in that position and I totally support him.

    However, he does not preach that his personal practice is the norm that all Christians must follow.
     
  7. TCGreek

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    Your dad must be commended for his faithfulness to what the text says on this issue.

    Just this passed week I was viewing a Dr. David Jeremiah's program, and he and your dad are on the same page.
     
  8. Jkdbuck76

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    No matter what we do, we are to keep in mind that we should NOT offend the weaker brother or sister.

    We have a responsibility to them just as much as we have a responsibility to the Lord.
     
  9. MichelleinPA

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    Now I hold to the total abstinance postion with the Bible as my only source.

    The first verse that pops into my mind is Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
     
  10. webdog

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    And how does that support abstinance?
     
  11. webdog

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    ...but is the weaker brother weaker out of ignorance, experience, or cultural? There is quite a difference...

    Also, I don't recall Jesus worrying about this with whom He chose to dine with, and when He performed His miracles.
     
    #11 webdog, Jan 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2008
  12. Dale-c

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    The weaker or more self righteous brother?
    I am not pointing fingers but I see a difference.
    One is a person that maybe a recovering drunkard while the other may be a pastor of 40 years that thinks he is better than others for not drinking.

    I don't see how you can really "offend" the pastor. He is not going to be tempted to violate his consience just because someone else drinks.
     
  13. HankD

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    The Scripture principle is perfectly clear: The "weaker" brother is the one who has pangs of conscience concerning alcohol as a beverage.

    But, after he sees you using alcoholic drink he is then emboldened to do the same for the wrong reason. Namely because he sees you do it and not because he is convinced out of his faith, the Scripture and the Holy Spirit that there is nothing wrong with its use in sobriety.

    HankD
     
  14. PK

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    Alcoholic wine - Prov. 20:1; 23:31
    Non-Alcoholic wine - Duet 11:18; 2 Chron 31:5; Neh 13:5; Prov 3:10; Isa 16:10; 65:8.

    Alcoholic wine prohibited - Prov 20:1; 23:29-35; 31:4-5; Isa 5:11; 28:7-8; Eph 5:18.
     
  15. standingfirminChrist

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    amen, PK. God, through His Holy Word, gives plenty warning against alcoholic wine.

    He also give us His blessing in partaking in the non-alcoholic wine... the blood of the grape.
     
  16. HankD

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    What is your point PK?

    Strong drink allowed Deut 14:26.

    KJV Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.

    HankD​
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    Since God's Word demands abstinence from alcoholic wine in other passages one would have to come to the conclusion that the wine and strong drink in Deuteronomy 14:26 could not be alcoholic in content.

    If one wants to twist the wine and strong drink into alcohol using Deuteronomy 14:26, one may as well twist 'whatsoever thy soul desireth' to justify prostitution and say God allowed them to hire harlots.

    No, the verse was not allowing man to buy alcoholic beverages, harlots, nor anything else that God forbids.
     
    #17 standingfirminChrist, Jan 10, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2008
  18. HankD

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    The passage says to do these things "before the Lord". Nowhere in this passage does it say anything about prostitutes as things to induldge in "before the Lord". It has to be added.

    strong drink (This word has only one meaning as to the substance):


    Strong's 7941 ​
    rkve shekar {shay-kawr'}


    Meaning: ​
    1) strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor


    Origin: ​
    from 07937


    HankD
     
  19. MichelleinPA

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    Webdog - it was the first verse that popped into my head where God shows us that drinking alcohol is wrong. PK showed some other verses. Basically, the Bible doesn't contradict itself, if we are saying that the Bible says that wine is fine and wine is wrong, there is something amiss in our interpretation.
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    Notice the first definition? strong drink. It does not necessarily have to mean intoxicating liquor. Try again.
     

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