BIG GUNS

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Ray Berrian, Feb 1, 2003.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    There must be a reason why the 'big guns' of Calvinistic theology have not tackled Hebrews 10:38-39. Drs. Murray, White, Pink, Sproul, Piper and many others have nothing to say about these texts in their books.

    The ' . . . if any man draw back' clearly indicates that some who heard the Gospel and were drawn to Christ, but now were withdrawing from saving grace, enough so that God says that He did not have warm feelings toward them. These were they who were drawing back to 'perdition/Hell.'

    The word 'draw back' [vs. 39] is {hupostolays} according to Dr. James Strong, means (to shun or to keep back). Here were people before regeneration who had been moved on by the Holy Spirit and had resisted His calling, and furthermore, God not only was angry with them, but at the hour of their death entered destruction.

    We have not heard the concussion of the 'big guns' of Calvinism because there are no Biblical answers to putty the holes of the theological wall.

    Apparently, there are people who resist the gift and grace of God.
     
  2. KenH

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    Does John Gill qualify as a "Big Gun"? From his commentary:

    Hebrews 10:38

    Ver. 38. Now the just shall live by faith,.... The "just" man is one not in appearance only, but in reality; not by his obedience to the law, but by the obedience of Christ; and he is evidently so by the Spirit, and by faith: and he is one, who lives soberly and righteously; and the life he lives, and shall live, at present, is, not eternal life; for though he shall live that life, yet this is not intended; for it is a living by faith that is spoken of, and as antecedent to the coming of Christ; but a spiritual life is meant, a life of justification in Christ, a life of communion with Christ, and a life of holiness from Christ, with peace, joy, and comfort through him: and the manner of this just man's living is "by faith"; not upon his faith, but upon Christ, the object of it; and by "his faith", as in Hab 2:4 his own, and not another's; or by the faith of Christ: the Syriac version here renders it, "by the faith of myself"; that is, by the faith of Christ, who speaks, and who is the author and object of faith: the Alexandrian copy and the Vulgate Latin version read, "my just man shall live by faith"; and this life is to be now, in the mean while, until Christ comes, and because he will certainly come:

    but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. The Hebrew word hlpe, used in Hab 2:4 and which, by the Septuagint there, and by the apostle here, is translated by uposteilhtai, and rendered "draw back", according to R. David Kimchi {c} signifies, pride and haughtiness of heart; and, according to R. Sol. Jarchi {d} it signifies impudence; R. Moses Kimchi {e} takes it to be the same with lpe, which is used for a tower, or fortified place; and thinks it designs one who betakes himself to such a place for safety from the enemy, and seeks not to God for deliverance: so that such a person seems to be designed, who swells with pride and confidence in his own righteousness; who betakes himself to some fortress of his own for safety; who withdraws from the assembly of the saints, through fear of reproach and persecution; who withholds the truth, shuns to declare it, or maintain a profession of it; plays the hypocrite, and deals deceitfully in religious things; and, in short, it may intend one, who finally and totally apostatizes from the doctrine of faith, and the profession of it: and in such persons God has no pleasure, never had, nor never will have; but, on the contrary, they are abominable to him, and will lie under his sore displeasure, and feel the keen resentments of it; such stand opposed to the just man, that lives by faith, walks humbly with God, in a dependence, not on his own righteousness, but on the righteousness of Christ, in which he is safe from condemnation, and secure of the divine favour; for drawing back is not supposed of the just man, but of any man, as we, with the Ethiopic version, rightly supply; and is to be understood of anyone of the external professors of religion, who forsake the assembling of the saints, Heb 10:25 and is denied of the truly righteous in the following words.

    {c} In Hab. ii. 4. {d} In ib. {e} Apud R. David Kimchi in ibid. & in Sepher Shorashim, rad. lpe.
     
  3. Frogman

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    vs. 38 is bound by scripture which declare to us the meaning of Paul. He is speaking of his own displeasure in any who would draw back.

    vs. 26 begins: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,..."

    27 tells us what remains: "...a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

    28 references the fate of those despising the law of Moses--these died without mercy (human physical death, dispensed without mercy, as to the person guilty of despising such law.)

    29 speaks to me and all believers, who being under the Blood of Christ yet fly in the face of God and pursue our own ends

    30 The Lord shall judge his people (see 2 Cor. 5).

    31 Truly it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of affliction.

    33 being made a gazing stock by reproaches and afflictions and also as ye became companions of them so used.

    34 ye had compassion of me in my bonds and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, (why) knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

    35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, (as manifested above), which has great recompense of reward. {Salvation is not a reward}

    36 For need ye have need of patience, that after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. (Of salvation? No. why not, because, already being illuminated (vs.32) you already are a partaker of the heavenly calling, but of the promise of reward)

    37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

    38 So then, the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Whose soul? Paul's)

    39 seals the question: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    I see no problem with the vss. in question. Perhaps this is the reason for the lack of "big guns" applying themselves to this in great extent.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. npetreley

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    Obviously at least one "big gun" addressed this. (I suspect others have, too.) Regardless, to argue that someone has not addressed it is to argue from absence, which is the weakest kind of argument possible. It's the same as those who argue that the church must be raptured by such-and-such a point in Revelation, because the word "church" does not appear after that. Well, the word "steak" doesn't appear anywhere in Revelation. So I guess there won't be any steak in the end times.
     
  5. Frogman

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    npetreley,

    from your last two posts, I am guessing you are hungry?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. npetreley

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    I don't recall what I wrote in the other post to which you must be referring, but I am feeling a bit peckish now that you mention it. [​IMG]
     
  7. npetreley

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    OIC - side of fries. ;)

    My memory is great, but it's short. I went to the doctor to ask him what the problem with my memory might be. He asked me how long I've had this problem. I said, "what problem?"
     
  8. IndpndntBptst

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    And a righteous person will live by faith. But I will have no pleasure in anyone who turns away. But we are not like those who turn their backs on God and seal their fate. We have faith that assures our salvation. (Hebrews 10:38, 39 NLT)

    You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? But your ancestors did, and so do you! (Acts 7:51 NLT)

    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to protect your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me. (Matthew 23:37 NLT)
     
  9. TheTravelingMinstrel

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    indybap, what's the purpose for these verses?

    And also, NTL, New Living Translation, right?

    I'd suggest that you not use that version, they have mistranslated verses.

    Matthew 23:37 (KJV)
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often wouldI gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not."

    the 'let me', part of the verse was added in the NLT version, which changes the meaning of the text significently.

    This is not the only instance of which I have found errors in that version of the Bible.
     
  10. IndpndntBptst

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    Either way, God wanted to do something for them, but they didn't want it.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Ken H,

    Dr. John Gill's interpretation of Hebrews 10:38 is for the most part fine. My problem with Calvinists like him is that he does not take this verse and apply it toward "Irresistible Grace." If one understands this aspect of God's Word, there are clearly those who 'draw back' from Christ, Heaven and everlasting life. These are those who have understood the Gospel, via the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but have turned Jesus aside. In our 21st century there are those in our own communities who know what it is to be saved but still remain in rebellion because of their inner, Adamic nature.

    Yes, I think probably John Gill is a 'big gun' in the minds and hearts of those of the Calvinistic persuasion.
     
  12. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Independent Bapts,

    You are exactly right in your post! It is interesting that I have used these verses before to point out the utter, error of "Irresistible Grace." Is it an obstruction of the mind, a hindrance of the heart, an unwillingness to bow to what Jesus is telling them or because of a blind spot in looking at their own theological tradition?

    Respectfully,
    Ray
     
  13. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    The Traveling Minstrel,

    I was amused by your distraction about not trusting that translation, but you may be correct. [Matthew 23:37]

    If you check your Greek New Testament you will find the words, ' . . . and ye would not!' In the Greek the words are {kai---ourk---ethelasate} I am sure you would not want to 'go up against' what a copy of the original manuscript has to say about someone resisting the proffered salvation of the people of Jerusalem in this passage.

    Notice, God in the flesh practically begs those of His own nationality to return to Him. The problem could not be laid at the feet of God for His lack of sincerity toward the city that seventy years after His ascension fell to an invading nation. And so He says, 'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathered her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT.'
     
  14. IndpndntBptst

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    "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the judgment of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:"

    I do not, in fact, cannot understand how such texts in the Bible can be harmonized with Calvinism. Jesus, after saying this, laments over Jerusalem in verse 37. Jesus was genuine when He said these things. He was not following some fatalistically determined plan:

    (1) Make it to where they cannot believe.
    (2) Preach to them vigorously as if it could actually change something.
    (3) When they reject me, weep over them as if I cared in the first place.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    But simply "wanting to do something for them" is not irresistable grace. Your lack of knowledge on this is somewhat understandable. "Dr." Ray's is not since he claims to have been thoroughly trained in a calvinist seminary. He should know better.
     
  16. Tony Solomon

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    Off the cuff, I have not seen a problem with these verses with ref to Calvinist theology.

    The writer to the Hebrews is speaking into a difficult situation - they are facing persecution, and it would appear that some at least are considering retreating back into Judaism for their own safety, and out of fear.
    But this epistle, sometimes called the epistle of warning, is also the epistle of encouragement. Firstly he shows how the old Judaism has been fulfilled in Christ, secondly ehshows that they as the people of God need not fear, any more than their forebears did; thirdly, the clarion call of the epistle: We see Jesus. He has triumphed over every foe, despite the contradiction of sinners against him. So take heart. I know you will. Nowhere does he address the readers as apostates.
    It is to misunderstand reformed theology and think that, just because we are saved and elect, there is nothing else to do. The writer says, let us run the race with patience (endurance). Keep on keeping on. Christianity is a religion of effort, based on the fact that it is God that works in us.

    regards
     
  17. npetreley

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    Surely you are not arguing that because some are lost, grace must not be irresistable?
     

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