Blast from the Past

Good reply, Kevin. I myself was sensing more pride than spirituality in the mockery of the questions. Where is the love demonstrated by Paul who said if eating meat, a perfectly good and acceptable food, put a stumbling block in the path of his brother, he would eat no meat as long as the earth stood?

I'm afraid the love of many has waxed cold.

 

This is the kind of spirit that makes me fear for the future of conservative Christianity. Those who question man-made rules somehow have allowed love to wax cold?

I played Go Fish with my grand daughter last week. Do you really think that is a stumbling block?

Indeed, where is the love of Christ?

I wonder how Jesus Himself felt about the elevation of man-made tradition to a measure of a man's faith?


BTW, if all these rules cause me to stumble, shouldn't those making them love me enough to stop?

 

Cards - the only ones I would have a problem with would be those of the gambling variety... and even then it is the gambling, not the game itself that is the issue.

The likes of Rook and Uno I think are perfectly innocent.

I know there is certainly a problem with man-made rules, but what concerns me about the future of Christianity is not so much that, but the abandonment of all rules, to a Christianity that allows all and makes no requirements upon a Christian's life.

Now, let me stress, I am not accusing any one on this forum of doing this, those of you I know personally I know are not in favour of this. Others here I do not know well enough to say.

But I think those who are abandoning all rules are perhaps not helped by an irrational and unScriptural reaction by some who hold to what some may call "man-made rules".

Lastly, I wonder if what Aaron is referring to is the focus in many circles today being almost entirely on Christian liberty rather than Christian responsibility.

 

What would you suggest are the requirements upon a Christian's life?

Are rules on card-playing, going to the cinema, women in trousers, our choice of music, etc. requirements that man must hold to? Can anyone honestly say that these are anything more than man-made rules?

 

I can only say what are the requirements on this Christian's life, and then I teach the principles I use and make some application to those who are in my sphere of respnsibility and influence.

If I taught all at church that I myself and my family hold to, and made all those things tests of fellowship, well, I doubt I'd be at the church very long and I would not have much fellowship.

I try to narrow things down to the fundamentals concerning fellowship, I hold to certain standards for myself, I teach the principles that I use and make some application when I teach and preach.

 

And why are men getting such a bad rap? What about woman-made rules?

 

If the requirement's are not clearly from the word of God, do they not really boil down to opinion?

Lets go back to playing cards. Some would say that using the normal hearts, clubs, diamonds, spades deck of cards should be avoided because it is an "appearance of evil." Others, in the furthest stretch of their imagination can't see any kind
of evil. (These is granting that the verse is to be taken in that light, which I doubt myself, but that has been debated to death ).

Who is right?

 

There are some things I believe are clear in Scripture yet the VAST majority of believers seem to disagree. But I'll come back to this.

I believe the issue with cards probably comes from the US south. I think such aspects of testimony may come down to context. If I lived and worked in Las Vegas, and cards were synonymous with gambling, to make a point I may abstain from cards.

I know there is nothing wrong with cards in and of themselves, but it may come down to perception and association.

Now, something I believe is in not taking the Lord's name in vain. I have a problem with cursing. So, my desire is to not watch anything that I know has cursing and I will not continue to watch something if cursing or blasephemy occur.

That, I believe, is clear in Scripture. But many here would probably label me a legalist because of this.

Is it an opinion? No, I believe it is Scripture. Do others think it is my opinion? You bet!

I have seen ministries become one-trick ponies, and by the grace of God that will not happen to me. The things which I understand are "peripheral" I will touch on, but not labour over, the fundamentals I would go to the stake for and teach as such.

If you disagree with me about cursing etc, I'll leave that to Christian liberty, if you disagree with me about the Deity of Jesus Christ, then we go our separate ways.

Now that I have firmly painted myself into the legalist's corner...

 

If you want to play in someone's ball field, ya gotta play by their rules.

I learned this long ago when I used to play sandlot baseball.

In other words, like my brother has said, if you do not like or agree with a particular mission board's requirements, then find one you do agree with. This world we live in is big enough for that isn't it?
What gripe's me the most about Baptists in general and Western Christianity as a whole is the fact that we are so busy griping and complaining about this one's standards or that one's eschatology that we as the people of God have become a laughing stock.

Gone are the days when a group of Christians have so impacted a community for Christ that the barkeepers had to close up shop.

What a shame. Quit yer griping about "man made rules" and get busy for Christ and see if you can make enough disciples in your town that the bars close, the abortionists leave, and the daddy's stick around to raise their kids.

 

This is key, and every local church needs to know where prospective missionaries, etc stand as they need to know where the church stands. I have no problem with that.

I do feel that there is great error in focusing on the externals such as those listed. Do I base a missionary's worth and support on whether or not he goes to the cinema or plays Go Fish with his kids?

 

Maybe others should quit griping about people who have issues about man-made tradition and get busy for Christ and see if they can make enough disciples in their town that the bars close, the abortionists leave, and the daddies stick around to raise their kids.

It goes both ways. I think man-made rules and traditions are an issue we need to address. I think it is an important issue - some, I fear, make the word of God of non effect by their traditions. Some denigrate the very grace of God by holding man to their views and opinions.

I have some huge issues with Swindol's "Grace Awakening," but I also have issues with what he termed "grace robbers."

 

That's a non-sequitur. If you abandon silly man-made rules for becoming a missionary, it does not follow that this will lead down the "slippery slope to anarchy".

Christianity is more about freedom than rules, anyway. Anyone who thinks they can avoid problems with rules is barking up the wrong tree. That's just trying to enforce law where law no longer applies. Christians, in general, shouldn't need rules. They will be motivated by the Spirit to be obedient or to avoid behavior that would make others stumble. Sure, there will always be some Christians who are rebellious and off-track, but you can't fix that by imposing man-made rules.

 

Some rules are a guide to help new believers. It is harder to live under grace than under the law.

Luke 14:26-27 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Are you crucified with Christ? Do you put your flesh to death daily? (1Cor.15:31). The Christian life is not an easy life to live. There are restrictions, many restrictions put on it. One person wisely said: "A Christian has no rights."

 

Here were the rules they "imposed" upon new Christians in Acts.

I don't see anything in there about playing cards, dancing, attending boxing matches, etc.

Regardless, we're not talking about new Christians. We're talking about qualifications to be a missionary.

 

Acts 15 are not the only rules imposed upon Christians. Read Romans 14, and you will find many more, especially examples of many more, for whatsoever is not done in faith is sin. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Paul also said "If meat make my brother to offend I will eat no meat while the world standeth lest I make my brother to offend." That is a high standard, and it includes playing cards, going to the theater, social drinking, etc. A missionary (as is every Christian) is held to a very high standard. In addition to the above verses which I quoted to you, which speak about putting your carnal desires (playing cards) to death, and living for Christ alone, here are some other verses that bear directly on this subject:

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 6:14-16 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

God desires us to be a separated people, separated from worldly things, carnal things, etc. Are the churches supporting a missionary to wile away his time playing cards and doing other wasteful worldly activities, or to win the lost, disciple them, and build local churches?

 

The problem is that most things like playing cards, attending a theater, etc., will only offend a brother now because anal self-righteous people have wrongfully condemned these practices as evil. It's circular reasoning to justify these rules. Think about what this boils down to: "We condemned these things and as a restult we made people feel guilty about them. Now that people feel guilty about them, you shouldn't do them in front of others because they'll feel guilty about them, and since they can't do them in faith, that causes them to stumble." Well, duh, if you hadn't perpetuated these stupid man-made rules in the first place, others wouldn't have gotten the wrong impression they're sinful.

I'm not advocating that we should flaunt our freedom in front of weaker brothers and sisters, I'm simply saying that we should not be afraid to point to a man-made rule and call it that. In addition, it only perpetuates the problem to make these rules requirements for missionary service.

Rather, one might put on the missionary application something more like, "Are you willing to sacrifice your freedoms in order to keep your brethren from stumbling?" Any Christian walking in the Spirit should say, "yes" to that.

This is not the same thing as answering "no" to "Do you ever play cards?" That question implies that it is sinful to play cards, and worse, that it's a bad witness to NON-Christians if you play cards. Wouldn't it be a good thing to join a game of Bridge and witness to the other players? You're not sinning by doing so, and you're not offending a brother there, since none of them are Christians. But it's pretty clear when you see that question that if you have to say "yes, I play cards," you might as well chuck that application out the window. That's just sad.

Yeah, I see the point about being called out from the world, and I agree 100%. My objection is that these mission organizations moved the line that separates what is worldly from what is not to a location that does more harm than good.

 

I understand your sensitivity to this issue since you are a missionary, however, I don't believe that the issue is the rules themselves which ahs struck such a raw nerve with a few in this thread.

As I see it, it appears to be a fleshly reaction to submitting to certain standards for public and personal conduct required by mission boards for the missionaries they will support.

I also think you have ripped the "none effect" argument completely out of its context and attempted to apply it where it does not belong. How is it that prohibitions against movies and cards (for example) makes the word of God and His commandments powerless? Explain that please.

As I have said and you did not address, if you don't like the rules for Mission Board XYZ then apply with Mission Board ABC. Where is the problem?

 

You know, I hear this freedom argument a lot. But tell me this.

Where does it say we are free from the requirements of living according to the law in order to live a righteous life? Yes, we are free from the bondage of the law, we are free from the penalty of the law, we do not have to follow the law for salvation. But we are not free from living a righteous life in order to please God.

Secondly, Christ Himself said he did not come to destroy the law.

You are right, we do have freedom, but not freedom from the law in terms of doing as we please. It is freedom to obey God's laws because of Choice and not obligation.

Then we come to the rub, what exactly is commanded and what is man-made? What is directly derived from the law and what has no basis in law whatsoever?

 

I saw this argument coming a mile away, and I even expected the exact quote (or paraphrase) you used.

It's a logical fallacy because we're not talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about freedom from the requirements of God's laws with respect to righteousness. I'm talking about freedom with respect to the rules that are simply a shadow of spiritual things (such as restrictions on what meats you may eat, etc.), and freedom with respect to man-made rules.

Here is a great passage about this:

Again, see above post for my agreement that we don't have the "right" to flaunt our freedoms in front of weaker brothers or sisters, and so make them stumble. But we still have the freedoms.

 

Well, they I fail completely. I wile away time with my family playing games and having fun. I wile away time posting in the BB. I also do the other things.

The two are not mutually exclusive.