Boasting of Personal Acheivement in knowing God

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Nov 13, 2011
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    Jer. 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

    The issue has been over the meaning of "glorieth glory" in the above verse. Can it refer to boasting due to "personal acheivement" or boasting due to God's grace?

    1. The Hebrew word is found 165 times in the Old Testament.
    2. 117 times it is translated "praise"
    3. 10 times it is translated "boast" and every single instance it is about boasting in God and NEVER about "personal acheivement"

    Skandelon repeatedly over and over again referred the readers to Websters definition of "boast"

    Boasting - "talk with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities." - Skandelon

    instead of the Hebrew term which is actually used, he demanded that Webster be the final authority and support for "personal acheivement" that provides believers the basis for knowing the Lord, whereas his opponents consistenly denied that knowing the Lord is a matter of either personal acheivement in regard to boasting.

    I simply read the words of God and gave the most common definition of the word. Those were Websters words, not mine, and I've requested REPEATEDLY an alternate that would appease the Calvinist, otherwise you are just debating with God. You can't just say, I disagree with that. You have to offer your interpretation of what that means. As it stands you all are not okay with boasting that you know and understand God, yet those are GOD'S words, not mine. - Skandelon post 239

    Skandelon further defined his own position on Jeremiah 9:24 and knowing the Lord by the following definitive words:

    Knowing God is a "personal achievement' for which God tells us to boast in, unless you have an alternative definition of what boasting entails? - Skandelon

    Originally Posted by Skandelon
    Your issue is not with what I said, but with what God said. Take it up with him. He said for us to boast in understanding and knowing him. Argue with God all you want, but he said what he said
    . - Post 224

    He then backed away from this position in his last post to me in the other thread and complained that I ignored posts 287 and 289;

    Biblicist, you ignored posts 287 and 290 in order to repeat your same unfounded arguments. Post 314

    In these two posts he provides nothing to support his claim that he agreed with Christ's outright denial that knowing God can be a matter of "personal acheivement" much less a basis for boasting:

    Obviously. I affirmed this in a previous post which clearly you two aren't even bothering to actually read anymore. Are you actually so far caught up into your straw man delusion of me that you think I would deny that God has to reveal himself in order for us to know Him??? Seriously? Come on man, talk to MEEEE, not your monster. Go back and read what I wrote and you will see over and over where I'm attempting to meet you two half way and you continue to paint me as some gloating fool running around bragging about how I came to know and understand God all by's just crazy. Is that really what you think about me? I mean really? - Post 287

    He gives no reference but the nearest reference to this same issue is his post 242 which shows he has not yet changed his position but leaves only two options:

    Ok, so if 'knowing and understanding God' is not your personal achievement then is it God's? Is God the one who is knowing and understanding himself? Is that your view? I have to guess since you won't tell me. - Post 242

    The two verses by Christ that Skandelon claims to agree with, answer this question definitively. No man can know God by personal acheivement because it comes only by DIVINE revelation and thus it is God that acheives this and not "personal acheivement" as man is the object of this action not the subject doing the action or a partnership in acheiving this action. Remember, understanding and knowing God is the issue and whether that is a basis for boasting due to PERSONAL ACHEIVEMENT? Jesus clearly repudiates any basis for personal acheivement in knowing God as it is only by divine revelation - period!

    There is no direct response to Christ's words by Skandelon as he claims between Post 245 and Post 279 as he claims.

    Mt 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

    This completely repudiates the idea that knowing God is a basis for boasting in "personal acheivement"! Jeremiah is not supporting the idea of "personal acheivement" but the idea ofwhat is more significant than wisdom or strength to glory or giving praise for and that is understanding and knowing the Lord.

    Skandelon reluctantly admits this interpretation of Jeremiah 9:24 is superior to his in his response to Preacher4truth:

    The first thing I notice is that you say, "The Calvinist can "praise" God for knowing Him without any contradiction." But doesn't the verse say to boast THAT you know and understand him? You seemed to shift it from boasting that you know him to praising God for knowing Him. The latter is obviously the more 'holy' and desirable, I admit, but just trying to stay true to the text.

    However, I cannot find any post between my post 245 and his post 297 where he admits that Christ's words repudiate "personal acheivement" as the basis for knowing God.

    No, he is caught by his own words, and is now trying to find some crack under the door to crawl out unscathed.

    If knowing God is the accomplishment of God's revelation to man, then it cannot be a basis for boasting in "personal acheivment."
    #1 The Biblicist, Jan 13, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2014

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