Boasting

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jan 14, 2010.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    I must say I'm getting a bit tired of hearing Calvinists claim that non-Calvinists can boast of our salvation because of the role we claim to play.

    Calvinists attempt to take the pious road of self abasement insisting that even our broken confession of needing God's offer of forgiveness and reconciliation is somehow worthy of boasting and a lessening of God's glory.

    First, Paul's teaching regarding boasting was ALWAYS directed toward prideful Pharisees who insisted they were the elect ones of God. Paul always contrasted the law with faith and never once hinted that a man's faith was boast worthy. Quite the opposite, Paul said, "Abraham believed and it was CREDITED to his account has righteousness." And you only need to read Hebrews 11 to see that the biblical author had no problem giving honor to this "great cloud of witnesses." Why is okay for scripture to honer and credit men for faith if indeed they have nothing to do with it?

    Is boasting in our understanding and knowledge of God really as bad as Calvinists make it appear?

    Let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth ; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD. -- Jeremiah 9:24
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let him who boasts boast of this, that he was smart enough to defend his soteriological views on an online forum. :)
     
  3. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whether one is Calvinist, Arminian, or anywhere in between, there's plenty of boasting going on, and you're right, it's not appropriate.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, confessing we are sinners is not exactly what I would call boasting. I could pour out all my sins here on this forum and that would not be boasting. In fact, I promise you I will not do that here, I would be ashamed.

    Coming to Jesus as a sinner is obeying him.

    Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

    I don't care what men say, Jesus said "come unto me" and so I did. He is not going to condemn me for doing the very thing he commanded me to do. In fact, he says if you do not come to him you will be lost.

    John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    Jesus offers us the water of life, but he does not force you to drink it. You must accept it from him and drink it yourself.

    John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    Action is required by the Lord on our part. He offers us the water of life, but we must drink it. This is our duty.

    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Here again, Jesus offers us the water of life, but we must "take" it.

    But obeying Jesus is nothing to brag about. Jesus told us when we obey him not to be highminded. We are only doing our duty when we obey him.

    Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

    And Paul warned believer's not to be highminded as well.

    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    This verse would not even make sense unless we had a part in salvation. But Paul warns us not to be highminded because we obeyed Christ and came to him in faith.
     
    #4 Winman, Jan 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2010
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess what Paul meant to say was, "because God did not give them faith they were broken off, and you stand by the faith God irresistibly gave you. Be not high minded, but fear."

    Fear what, you ask? Fear that you could be cut off the vine? "IMPOSSIBLE LORD," the Calvinist protests, don't you know the "P" in TULIP?"

    And if Paul really thought like a Calvinist why would he warn them not to be high minded about their faith and remind them to fear least they too are cut off?
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Today I got a flat tire on the side of the road and my spare was also flat. A nice man stopped and offered to let me use his spare tire. I thanked him and together we changed it.

    I've been bragging to all my friends all day long that I fixed my own flat tire all by myself...because, you know, I'm an "Arminian" and that's just what we do! :laugh:
     
  7. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Some Calvinists do make that argument, but this one does not. I realize that one does not have to believe in Calvinism to believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Having said that, the wording used by some non-Calvinists can give the wrong impression.

    ==If we take full credit for it, yes. However if we give the credit to God, no.
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    And who boasted in their "own" righteousness. You can't escape the fact that you believe you were benevolent enough to "accept" Christ.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    And Calvinist's boast that they were elected outside of Christ by God from the foundation of the world. Now, you can pretend all you want that doesn't make you feel just a little bit special and better than others, but it comes through quite clear.

    Calling on Christ for forgiveness of sins is the opposite of boasting and is proven so by the scriptures.

    Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


    The publican called on God to forgive his sins, and Jesus was not offended whatsoever, he didn't consider it an attack on God's sovereignty. And Jesus saw it as an act of humility and said so.

    So, this teaching that for a man to call on Christ for the forgiveness of sins is somehow a sinful thing is total error as shown by scripture itself.
     
    #9 Winman, Feb 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2010
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth ; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD. -- Jeremiah 9:24

    I'm not sure we should be taking a lesson on humility from someone with a signature like yours. :)
     
  11. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    "And Calvinist's boast that they were elected outside of Christ by God from the foundation of the world."

    It would help if you properly understood the arguments you oppose. I can't think of any group of grace beleivers that hold to the idea that the elect were chosen outside of Christ. In fact, the bible states that they were chosen in Christ, which is what I've heard every grace believer assert again and again, and is the position I take.
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    If anyone believes that they were elected outside Christ, it's Skandelon and Friends. To them they only difference between them and Judas is their intrinsic benevolence to follow Christ. In other words, they are better than he. For us the only difference is that Christ has interceded for us and not for him. We are no better.
     
  13. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, maybe you need to study your own doctrine, for Calvin himself taught that the elect man was chosen outside of Christ.

    What is Calvin saying here? He is saying that the elect were loved before and outside of Christ. He got one thing right though, it does seem to be different than many passages of scripture. Well, no kidding, that's because it is.

    This is serious error. We have no merit in ourselves. It is only being "in Christ" that we have merit with God through Jesus Christ.

    But Calvinism teaches that God chose and elected persons outside of Christ before the foundation of the word and predestined to give them to Christ afterward.

    And James White confirms this error.

    And look what John MacArthur wrote:

    Do you see anything about Jesus in John MacArthur's quote? Do we owe our salvation to Jesus? No, he believes the elect were chosen by God the Father outside of Christ. He cannot even say why.

    Perhaps you did not know this is what Calvinism teaches, now you do.
     
    #13 Winman, Feb 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2010
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    And what is the alternative? On what do you base the whole system of reward and punishment? When we get to heaven does God say, "Well done my good and faith servant?" or does he say, "I did a good job on this one?" Why does Paul have no problem saying that Abraham believed and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness? Why does scripture have no problem calling men like Enough, Noah and Job and others good, righteous men? Why does Heb. 11 have no problem listing how the "great cloud of witnesses" have pleased God through acts of faith? Why can't you do what scripture is willing to do and say that one person who chooses what is right is "better" than another?

    Whether they do what they do by an effectual work of God or not, THEY are the ones who do it and are given the credit for that. So even in your system, one is better than another. We both believe we have what we have because God granted it to us, but whether that granting is "effectual" or not it doesn't negate that it is US doing it.

    You would like to think that is the only difference because then you wouldn't have to deal with the big 'ol divine culpability booger hanging off the nose of your system.

    Truth is your system has God condemning man to eternal torture in hell before they are even born because Adam ate a piece of forbidden fruit. You have God offering salvation to all, but only granted the capability to a few. You have God pretending he is frustrated with the sinfulness of men (that He sealed them into from birth). You have God and acting as if he is patiently waiting for their repentance (when in reality he is only waiting on himself). You have God holding out his hands and longing to gather people He has no intention on saving. You have God sending an appeal for reconciliation to a world who cannot be reconciled. Why? Because they are enemies of God from birth and cannot respond to that universal appeal for all to be reconciled unless God allows them to. That doesn't sound like a genuine appeal for reconciliation to me.

    And you think its only because Christ interceded for one and not the other? I don't think so.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    You say it well in your first sentence Skandelon: "because of the role we claim to play." It is you Skandelon who said "the role we claim to play." It was and is not those who believe in the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace, which you disparagingly call Calvinism, who made this accusation, or boast if you will, but you alone!

    Therefore, aren't Arminians a little like the Pharisee in the parable of Jesus Christ in Luke 18:9-12, specifically Verse 11.

    11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

    An Arminian might paraphrase it thus: "GOD I thank you that I am not like those people who didn't have sense enough to believe."

    Those who believe in the Doctrines if Sovereign Grace are more like the publican:

    13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

    Jesus Christ said of the publican:

    14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
     
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    We claim the role we play is nothing more that of the publican Old Regular. You can attack that strawman all day long, but your just going to make yourself tired.
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, Old Regular, I can't speak for other non-Cals, but I remember when I called on Jesus to be my saviour and forgive my sins and I didn't pray anything like that Pharisee. I was scared to death of dying in my sins and I asked Jesus to show me mercy.

    But what you fail to see is that the scriptures themselves do not show calling on God for forgiveness of sins as a sinful act that usurps the sovereignty of God. This publican who clearly called out to God for forgiveness was accepted with God, Jesus himself said so.

    So, you can say anything you want, I will go by the example shown in scripture. Jesus said "come unto me" and so I did. He is not going to condemn me for doing the very thing he commanded me to do.

    But you teach that obeying Christ, coming to him and calling on him for mercy is a sinful act. Horrible.
     
  18. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Everyone who read Winman's accusation about John MacArthur (etc) should know that he is not correct. I took the time to look up the quote he used from MacArthur. It is from a sermon of MacArthur's, one I actually have on tape, on the doctrine of election. Winman pulled out a very short quote and he took that quote out of context. This is of course very easy to do since it is a long sermon (though short by MacArthur's standards). I will quote one line in MacArthur's sermon that directly contradicts Winman's claims then I will provide a link to the actual text of the sermon (something Winman did not do, and for good reason). Anyone who is familiar with the ministry and teaching of John MacArthur, and James White, should of course already understand that Winman's post misrepresents the teaching of Calvinism. We, Calvinists, believe that every part of salvation is done through Christ. There is no salvation outside of Christ. His death, burial, and resurrection are essential to election and salvation.

    From the sermon:
    "Every aspect of salvation is the work of God but you will notice here that that work is mediated through Christ. In verse 4 it says it is in Him, meaning Christ. In verse 5 it says it is through Jesus Christ. In verse 6 it says it is in the beloved one, meaning Christ. In verse 7, in Him, meaning Christ. In verse 9, purposed in Him, meaning Christ. In verses 10 and 11, in Him referring to Christ. In verse 12, in Christ. In verse 13, twice in Him, again referring to Christ. Our salvation is solely and only and wholly the work of God but through Christ it is wrought...And what has He done? Number one, He chose us...look at verse 4...just as He chose us in Him, meaning Christ, before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. He chose us to be made holy in Christ. He chose us to become blameless in Christ. He chose us before the foundation of the world." -John MacArthur

    The actual sermon (HERE).

    This is a very good example of why I stress to my students the need to pay careful and close attention to context. Mainly when it is a controversial issue and someone is being quoted. We should always try, but we are not always able, to check these type of quotes. If anyone here other than myself has/will check Winman's quote, they will easily see that his claim is not based in fact.
     
    #18 Martin, Feb 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2010
  19. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Jesus said "come unto Me" but He also said that, "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44). Those who come to Christ, including yourself, only do so because the Father has drawn them to Christ. The Father gave them to Christ, drew them to Christ, and will raise each of those He has given and drawn to Christ on the last day. No man can, or will, come to Christ apart from the work of God (also see Rom. 3:9-18). This truth should be understood by Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike.
     
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus was speaking to a group of hardened Jews in John 6, right? Why exactly do you think they couldn't come to him at that time, while the Jewish apostles could?

    We can pick Calvin's answer:
    Because they were born non-elect reprobates destined to hell and thus unable to willingly come to Christ.

    or we can pick the scripture's answer:
    Lord, who has believed our message? And who has the arm of the Lord been revealed to? 39 This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said: 40 He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them. -John 12:38-41
     

Share This Page

Loading...