Book of Enoch mentioned by Jude

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Martin Luther, Dec 31, 2008.

  1. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    Some say Gods perfect word has been throughly preserved in the KJV bible, in the book of Jude:


    Jude 1:14-15 (King James Version)

    14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."



    Quotes added by me, now lets look at the book of Enoch 1:9


    And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgement upon all, and to destroy all the ungodly:

    And to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.



    My logic is as follows, if you say that every word of the KJV is perfect then Jude was inspired by God to quote from the book of Enoch, hence it is also the word of God and as such also perfect. I am a fan of Enoch, it is worth reading what he had to say.
     
  2. Jim1999

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    MartinLuther,

    The original Anglican KJV included those questionable books in the middle, following the OT and before the NT.

    The Prayer Book reads: And the other books (as Hierome saith) the church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine: such are these as follows,and it goes on to list them...

    These books were always considered extra-biblical by the church that backed the KJV and eventually dropped them from the KJV in subsequent printings.

    There is some value in reading what was written. but not for docrine.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    I don't know about some of the other books as I have not read them all, but I can not find any errors in Enoch.
     
  4. jonathan.borland

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    There is some strange theology in 1 Enoch, like, e.g., there were no demons on the earth until angels came down and slept with women and then created giants whose spirits were evil and who were then to remain on the earth until the end of time to torture people with war, "to afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them" (1 Enoch 15:10-12).

    And just because something is inerrant does not make it the holy Word of God. It must be inspired to be that.

    For Jude, is he quoting 1 Enoch or simply the same tradition upon which 1 Enoch is based? The part included in both Jude and 1 Enoch is poetic and possibly related to a true prophetic oral tradition. On this account I would trust the form of the poetry included in Jude over that included in 1 Enoch, when they differ. The bulk of 1 Enoch, however, is narrative, and most likely nothing but a literary attempt to attribute one's own words to the biblical character Enoch by quoting real oral tradition (in the form of poetry) at the beginning and then constructing an elaborate apocalyptic from there on out based on various traditions and myths, some true, some made up.
     
  5. Martin Luther

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    That's a good possibility. I personally don't hold God to whatever the Nicaea council decided to canonize, but that's just me.
     
  6. gb93433

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    Just because something is quoted and placed in scripture doe snot mean it was the word of God. Scripture defines the word of God as found in Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." The word of God is the message not just the words. Word only have meaning in their context. The quote in Jude is just that--a quote.

    Paul quoted a Cretan prophet, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." It is obvious that a Cretan prophet's words were not God's words. A Cretan prophet was not God.
     
  7. Martin Luther

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    I believe that pure perfect Word of God is the Christ. If you read further into Hebrews 4.......

    13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.



    1 Peter 1:22-24 (King James Version)

    22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

    23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



    John 1 (King James Version)

    John 1
    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2The same was in the beginning with God.

    3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



    I don't believe that Timothy’s stomach problems "but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." are a part of Gods holy eternal Word of God. The pure Word is Christ. Which is one more reason why I like the book of Enoch. Secondly, Jude was quoting Enoch’s message as his own message, Jude under the guidance of the Holy Spirit was conveying real truth.
     
  8. robycop3

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    I question the antiquity & authorship of the Book of Enoch. I don't have it before me, but I know somewhere it refers to a year of 365 1/4 days, its current length. We know, both from scripture & worldwide secular history, that the year was only 360 days long up until the 700s BC. it was most likely lengthened when God caused the cosmic events which made the sun reverse its course for Hezekiah.

    While this was before Jude's time, of course, it was long after Enoch's. The year was still 360 days long in Enoch's time.
     
  9. EdSutton

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    Good choice, I'd say.

    Uh- might this be as good a place as any, to note that the Council of Nicea did not address any questions regarding 'Canonicity'?

    Just wonderin'

    Ed
     
  10. gb93433

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    Try reading John 1:1 in light of its historical context and come to the same conclusion.

    Ps. 19:7, "The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple."

    James 1:4, "And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

    Mt. 4:4, "But He answered and said, "It is written, `Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.' "

    Mt. 13:22, "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful."

    Jude also quoted the Assumption of Moses.
     
  11. Marcia

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    The Book of Enoch gives names of fallen angels. This is not found in the Bible at all and we only have the names of two good angels -- Gabriel and Michael (Satan is not a name but a title or description, as I understand, meaning "the adversary").

    Many occultists use the Book of Enoch.
     
  12. Jim1999

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    Whilst the early church leading up to Luther did give some credence to the Apocrypha this book in question, Enoch, was never part of this set. Some even quoted from the Apocrypha as if they were part of scripture. Luther put an end to this with his Bible, and the Roman Catholic Church fully adopted them in rebellion to the reformed movement.

    I might read Enoch for amusement but I would have to be terribly bored and out of Peanuts cartoons.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  13. franklinmonroe

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    As you noted, the similar wording is found in the very earliest portion of Enoch. Other sections of the current 'Book of Enoch' may have been much later additions that were never known to Jude or the apostles.
     
  14. robycop3

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    Whoever wrote the book of Enoch coulda copied some Scripture insteada vice versa.
     
  15. SummaScriptura

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    I think whenever this subject comes up people immediately obssess over something which is really not the critical starting point. "Should it be considered Scripture?", "It's not canonical.", etc. For me, the critical question is, is the Book of Enoch the authentic writing of the Biblical Enoch?

    If we pursue the answer to this question, is there anything we could do to answer it?
     
  16. SummaScriptura

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    Problem is, the New Testament is chock-full o' parallels to the Book of Enoch. How do we explain that? The Book of Enoch is demonstrably older.
     
  17. SummaScriptura

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    Until the late 1940's, this might have been a legitimate point. The discoverey of parts of 11 copies of the Book of Enoch among the Dead Sea Scrolls, effectively sinks your speculation. Those pre-Christian-era scrolls have been used to spot-check the complete copies we have in the Ethiopic language. The conclusion: Ethiopic Enoch (aka 1 Enoch, or the Book of Enoch) is essentially a faithful formally equivalent translation of the book which was in circulation during the Apostolic era.
     
  18. marke

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    Jude was not quoting the book of Enoch, but was quoting Enoch. The Book of Enoch was added later by men of questionable motive and is not the word of God.
     
  19. DaChaser1

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    think that is as simple as just THAT portion of Enoch did actually record true facts, and that was part Jude inspired under HS included!

    same way that Apostle Paul quoted pagan Philosphers!

    rest of Enoch NOT revelation inspired by God!
     
  20. SummaScriptura

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    You have some details mixed up. The Book of Enoch is a pre-Christian book. This is not something anyone credibly questions. Also, it was never "added". What does "added" mean anyhow? Added to your BIble? Obviously not. By the way, I am asserting it is the authentic writing of Enoch. Whether it is "the word of God" is not something anyone can prove or disprove.
     

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