Born Again? Where Did It Start? OT? NT?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by rbrent, Jan 4, 2004.

  1. rbrent

    rbrent
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    As far as I can determine from the scriptures, being 'born again' is not mentioned in the Bible until John 3.

    Many folks teach that at the moment you get born again, you are placed into the body of Christ - I Cor 12:13 - spiritual baptism, not water baptism.

    If that is true, then there would be no 'born again' in the Old Testament since there was no body of Christ to be born into until Matthew 27:50.

    So my questions are:

    (1) Did anyone get 'born again' in the Old Testament? If yes, what scriptural proof do you have?

    (2) Did anyone get 'born again' before Matthew 27:50, when Jesus actually died on the cross? (The new testament is not in force until the death of the testator - Heb 9:16, 17).
    If yes, what scriptural proof do you have?

    (3) What scripture(s) can you give to indicate that folks got 'born again' in the Old Testament also or only in the New Testament, after the crucifixion and resurrection?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Preacher Ron

    Preacher Ron
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    I don't believe that any one was born again, in the OT.

    Heb. 11:13 Says
    These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    This vs. in Heb. is talking about the OT saints.

    It is in the NT in John chapter 3, where Jesus said ye must be born again.

    My God Bless
    Preacher Ron
     
  3. David Mark

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    I like Nicodemus' honest questions. The way Jesus challenges Nicodemus makes me think that as a leader of Israel, Nicodemus should have at least understood the concept.

    Dave
     
  4. Preacher Ron

    Preacher Ron
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    Dave</font>[/QUOTE]OOOH Boy this could get very deep! If you know what I mean. This one would really preach!

    Preacher Ron
     
  5. Johnv

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    I think you'r right on this one. Prior to the NT, when a Jew dies, his body returned to the earth and his soul went to Sheol, which in Hebrew folklore, is the place/state where dad souls resided. There's the occaisional exception where an OT figure was "taken up", but these are extreme exceptions. Jews didn't have a concept of Heaven or Hell as we do. That concept arose in the NT, coinciding with the concept of being born again, as per Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus.
     
  6. er1001

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    Those who lived in OT time were expected to look forward to the cross as much as we have to look back to it.A redeemer was promised in Gen ch 3.
     
  7. er1001

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    Those who lived in OT time were expected to look forward to the cross as much as we have to look back to it.A redeemer was promised in Gen ch 3.Also Gal 3/6 say Abraham believed and it was accounted unto him for righteousness and James 2/23 says much the same. [​IMG]
     
  8. David Mark

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    Dave</font>[/QUOTE]OOOH Boy this could get very deep! If you know what I mean. This one would really preach!

    Preacher Ron
    </font>[/QUOTE]Oh really? (Warm Smile).

    I've never really thought much beyond Nicodemus' inability to understand the Lord's words. Nevertheless, I find it a little interesting to know if it was possible for Nicodemus to have been more prepared to understand the phrase "You must be born again".

    Smile,

    Dave [​IMG]
     
  9. Preacher Ron

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    [/QUOTE]Dave

    Oh really? (Warm Smile).

    I've never really thought much beyond Nicodemus' inability to understand the Lord's words. Nevertheless, I find it a little interesting to know if it was possible for Nicodemus to have been more prepared to understand the phrase "You must be born again".

    Smile

    It seems that the Lord thought he should have known, in John 3:10

    John 3:10
    Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    Preacher Ron
     
  10. Tim

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    Jesus' comment to Nicodemus shows me that the Master allowed himself a little sarcasm when the situation was appropriate.

    My problem is that I often use sarcasm when it's inappropriate.

    Being born again? Definitely a NT concept--it is a central feature of the New Covenant--no longer was the first birth significant (as in OT--physical lineage, being Jewish, what tribe, etc.), now all the focus was on the second birth (of the Spirit).

    Yes, Nicodemas should have known. The OT reveals certain aspects of the New Covenant which was yet to come.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    So, what you are all saying is that Jesus, who is Jehova, who is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, who said he changes not, is, in his conversation with Nicodemus, adding a new aspect to salvation called the new birth which none of his Old Testament saints possess ?

    Therefore, the Old Testament saints were never required regeneration, did not need to undergo regeneration as did New Testament saints ? No new birth for the OT saints, but, NT saints had to have a new birth ?
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    Further questions to those who say that to be born from above is not an Old Testament doctrine.

    1. Is it an Old Testament truth ?
    2. and is it a heavenly requirement ?
    3. Is Nicodemus an Old Testament saint, or a New Testament saint ? What about the Apostles, the virgin Mary, her husband Joseph, the rest of the 120 in the Upper Room, Simeon the old man who worshipped the infant Jesus when presented in the temple 8 days after his birth, are they Old Testament saints, or New Testament saints ?

    Remember the words of Jesus to Nicodemus in John 3:3 was:

    Do these words apply to those I mentioned above, including those not mentioned ? When did the New Testament begin, for that matter ?
     
  13. HankD

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    Galatians 4
    21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
    22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
    30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
    31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
     
  14. Tim

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    The OT saints, and all who were believers before Christ were indeed saved by faith. But they were not born again as we are under the terms of the New Covenant--they had not entered into the kingdom of heaven. They had a true, but incomplete faith.
    See Jesus' comments about John the Baptist vs. those who would become members of Christ's kingdom (Mat. 11:11)

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  15. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
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    I understand it to be that Christ's sacrifice is not bound by time and space. God in His plan knew it was to happen. OT saints looked forward to it, NT saints and up to today look backward to it, at least in terms of time. But God is bigger than that. Faith in redemption is what saved in the OT, as now.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    But, Tim, again, we go back to my question. Is Nicodemus an Old Testament saint, or a New Testament one. Are you saying that Jesus is telling him he cannot see the kingdom of God ?

    Are you saying none of those who walked with Christ in His time here on earth ever saw the kingdom of God come to fruition on earth ?
     
  17. Tim

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    pliny,

    That's a big question. It grapples with the transitionary nature of the NT era and the nature of the kingdom of heaven.

    I believe the spiritual kingdom was coming during the time of Christ (John announced it, Christ announced it). But initially it existed within the old kingdom (national Israel)--Luke 17:21). The realization of the kingdom in it's entirety awaited the completion of the changeover, then it seems that believers finally "recieved" the spiritual kingdom when OT theocratic Israel was destroyed (Heb. 12:22-29).

    So ultimately, the spiritual kingdom was "established" as any kingdom is established, when it's rival was vanquished.

    Back to Nicodemus, et. al. Yes, they could be born again and become a part of the growing spiritual kingdom as the New Covenant unfolded in the midst of the fading Old Covenant.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  18. Me2

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    Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

    Only those who has the spirit of Christ "within them" can "see" the kingdom of God.

    No OT Saint received his spirit until it was distributed by the Holy Spirit on pentacost.

    we are "born again" into heaven which means that our new spirit has been resurrected from death.

    only by being "in christ" when he was resurrected into heaven allows us to be "in heaven" in him also.

    by faith we are allowed to believe and witness to this occurreance. as we have our being, our fellowship with our brothers and sisters "in Christ" we have our being "in heaven".

    to "see" Heaven is to "see" the resurrected Christ become Lord proving that He has overcome the power of death. we are no longer under the power of death. we operate "within" the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. we operate "within" heaven.

    the OT saints didnt have that same opportunity until they received his spirit, only after the man Jesus Christ was crucified and defeated death.

    Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    Heb 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    Heb 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
     
  19. HankD

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    Dear Tim,

    Please explain the Scriptures I posted.

    HankD
     
  20. Tim

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    Hank,

    I'll give it a shot:

    Gal.4 as stated, is an allegory:

    Ishmael, though firstborn, was born of the flesh--by merely natural means (not according to God's design for the son who would inherit the promises)
    Hagar, his mother was a slave from Egypt.

    Hagar represented the OT Law (Sinai), which was holding Jerusalem (of Paul's day) in it's bondage with it's children (Those Jews who maintained their allegiance to the Law of the OT as a hope to inherit the promises).

    Isaac was the child of promise (the promised child in God's design to inherit the promises given to Abraham). He was miraculously born of faith.

    Sarah, a freewoman, was Isaac's mother.

    Sarah represented the heavenly Jerusalem, her children were all true believers.

    Believers were like Isaac, children miraculously born of faith, and destined to receive the promises.

    As Ishmael persecuted Isaac, and thus Sarah had Hagar and Ishamal cast out, so unbelieving Israel was then persecuting the church, thus God would cast them out.

    Only believers would inherit the promises.

    So I think this passage confirms my idea of a temporary overlap between the two covenant peoples, physical Israel, and the church.

    John 3:3:
    Without being born of the Spirit, no one be a part of the spiritual kingdom.

    Straightforward.

    Luke 13:28:
    The unbelieving Jews of Christ's day would not enter the spiritual kingdom. Instead, they (like Ishmael and Hagar btw) would be cast out. It would happen even though they considered themselves the rightful inheritors of the promises given to the patriarchs.

    Then the tricky part: How do those patriarchs become a part of the spiritual kingdom, when they were not so originally (being OT saints)?

    I believe that they were translated into the kingdom after the resurrection of Christ.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     

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