"Born of water"

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Deacon, May 15, 2003.

  1. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,970
    Likes Received:
    128
    In John 3 we read:
    What does the phrase, “born of water” mean?
     
  2. Larry in Tennessee

    Larry in Tennessee
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would suppose born of water is referring to baptism isn't it? That's the only water birth we are commanded to submit to.
     
  3. Dan Todd

    Dan Todd
    Expand Collapse
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    14,452
    Likes Received:
    0
    The best commentary on the Word of God is the Word of God.

    Water - Eph 5:26 - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [nkjv]
     
  4. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    The passage is talking about your first birth, with water.
     
  5. Tony F

    Tony F
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here are the notes I have on John 3:5

    Some suggest that the "water" is the release of fluid that accompanies physical birth, but linguistic conditions point to understanding "water" and "Spirit" as referring to a single spiritual birth. Many understand "water" as a reference to baptism, but this would have been before Christian baptism was established and therefore would have been meaningless to Nicodemus. Probably the statement refers to OT passages in which the terms "water" and "Spirit" are linked to express the pouring out of God's spirit in the end times (Is 32:15; 44:3; Ezek 36:25-27) The presence of such rich OT imagery accounts for Jesus' reproof of Nicodemus in v. 10. As a "teacher of Israel" he should have understood.
     
  6. Istherenotacause

    Istherenotacause
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2003
    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    0
    Before one can be born of the Spirit, one must be born of water. Since the working of the Word of God/washing of water by the word is covered by the Spirit, so it is easily said that Jesus was referring to the natural birth by which the CHILD is surrounded by water in the womb.

    To say that the Spirit works apart from the Word of God is wrong, we never see the water of the Word washing anyone apart from the Spirit.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Following the succession in verse 6 we see the reference to "flesh is flesh"/ water, then we see the latter, "Spirit is spirit", this is the Word of God defining itself by context complimenting the previous verse. Also notice in verse 5 that Jesus says,"born of water" and not of the water, this also indicates there is no work the water has any power to do anything, but then in verse 6, "born of the flesh" indicates the power of the flesh to cause conception and give natural life.(Of course the Spirit of God being in total control of that too.) Only the Spirit can give that Spiritual life Nicodemas was having trouble understanding. If the Word of God apart from the Spirit has the power to give eternal life then everyone who reads the Bible would be automatically saved. (Wish that were true, then we could pass laws requiring everyone to read the Bible before getting out of 6th grade!)

    John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Notice the working of the Holy Spirit is observable, but cannot be predetermined by mortal man. The washing of water "by the word" is the action that this same Spirit is working, but can neither be predetermined by moratl man. It all regards the "flow" of the Spirit, not the actual H2O, called water, for the context of John 3 refers to the working of the Holy Spirit as the wind.

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Here, Jesus is speaking again of the workings of the Word of God, those life giving words, those actions of the Holy Spirit. Jesus came that we might have life, and that more abundantly, it all comes through the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives as we hunger and thirst after righteousness, by which we are filled as we "consume" the Word of God and the Word fills and controls us.

    Water baptism is just that, water baptism. No life giving power in water baptism, only a testimony of obedience to the word of God, indicating that one has been born of water and by the Spirit/ salvation by grace, not of works, lest any man should boast of his baptism.

    In His Holy Service,

    Brother Ricky
     
  7. Wisdom Seeker

    Wisdom Seeker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    5,702
    Likes Received:
    0
    Born of water.... A baby is surrounded by "water" aka amniotic fluid in the womb. Have you never heard the term "Her water broke"? This is the first birth of a human being.

    The second birth, born of the spirit, is salvation through Christ Jesus. The spiritual quickening.

    Note the scripture says "and".

    "Born once...Die twice...Born twice....Die once."

    This scripture has nothing to do with Water Baptism. Water Baptism is meant as a public profession of faith. As a wedding ring is a public profession of marriage but is not marriage...so too Baptism is a public profession of salvation...but is not salvation.
     
  8. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2002
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice replies everyone, [​IMG] I wish this post was around when I was talking to a member of Church of Christ about a year ago. I could just never explain it verbally very good. I knew it in my head I just could not express it.
    Odd how thing work sometimes.
     
  9. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,970
    Likes Received:
    128
    I too want to express my thanks.
    Context, context, context. It makes the answer so obvious, even to simpletons like me.

    Rob [​IMG]
     
  10. Graceforever

    Graceforever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen Dan..... Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.... After that you have been washed (by hearing) the word, if you except Christ, then the spirit (the Blood) moves in to dwell with you... Thus, you are born by water and by the (spirit) blood.... You might say that the spirit seals the deal….

    A person can hear the word and reject it… If this happens, after you have been cleansed by hearing the word…… Seven more unclean spirits will come into your heart……. The last state of that man is worse than it was originally… Of course, if a person excepts Christ, after that he has heard the word, then the Holy Ghost (the blood) will move into your heart, and he will never leave you, or forsake you….. In other words, some spirit will reside in your heart, it’s up to the individual which spirit it is…

    Here is where a lot of Christians are confused with losing their salvation… The Bible says,
    “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”

    Then, some will say, this proves that you can lose your salvation…. It does nothing of the sort… If anything, it proves that you (through unbelief) can turn away the gospel…. This doesn’t mean that you have backslid, because you must be born of the blood in order to backslide…. This does mean that you, by unbelief, can trample underfoot the blood of Christ, and count what he did for you as unworthy…..

    True, you have to have the spirit in order to backslide, but you can reject the word by unbelief….. Thus, the spirit is a symbol of the Blood…. The water is a symbol of the word of God…..
     
  11. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Bible explains Bible. Jesus used parallelism here:

    I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

    Flesh giving birth to flesh is being born of water.
     
  12. Istherenotacause

    Istherenotacause
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2003
    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen Dan..... Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.... After that you have been washed (by hearing) the word, if you except Christ, then the spirit (the Blood) moves in to dwell with you... Thus, you are born by water and by the (spirit) blood.... You might say that the spirit seals the deal….

    So then, the passage reads: born of Spirit and of the Spirit? Thanks for clearing that all up for me. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Graceforever

    Graceforever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wrong.... There are three that bears record in heaven, and three on earth.... The three on earth, the spirit, the water and the blood.... 1 JN. 5:7-8

    I don't expect everyone to understand, but perhaps you can post without sarcasm....
     
  14. tnelson

    tnelson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2002
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    "born of water and the Spirit."
    Jesus referred not to literal water here but ot the need for "cleansing" (Ezek. 36:24-27)
    When water is used figuratively in the OT, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with "spirit" (Num.19:17-19; Ps.51:9,10; Is.32:15; 44:3-5; 55:1-3; Jer.2:13; Joel 2:28,29).
    Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Eph.5:26; Titus 3:5) required for belonging to His kingdom.

    mike
     
  15. Istherenotacause

    Istherenotacause
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2003
    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wrong.... There are three that bears record in heaven, and three on earth.... The three on earth, the spirit, the water and the blood.... 1 JN. 5:7-8

    I don't expect everyone to understand, but perhaps you can post without sarcasm....
    </font>[/QUOTE]All I was doing was trying to get you to understand what you are saying reads like that. Since you are offended, maybe you should go back and read the Scripture over again and pull out your Strong's Concordance as well as any other dictionary or Greek Lexicon to see for yourself that the water in John 3 is literal water. Maturity is expressed in ability to see when one is giving you a chance to reckon it for yourself, I wasn't being sarcastic. :rolleyes:

    What you refer to in I John is literal water also. The Strong's #5204. Consider what it is you are saying and study it out for yourself. If I John 5 is speaking of the Word of God as the water, then John 3 does also, but this isn't the case, the Spirit of God never works apart from the Word and the blood is not spiritual in I John 5, it's literal also, just as the Spirit is literal. Notice that John says things in the earth, things in the earth are literal!

    Rightly divide the Word, it always helps to understand.

    In His Holy Service,

    Brother Ricky
     
  16. Graceforever

    Graceforever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    0
    It’s always interesting to see you young brothers, that think they know it all, learn that they really don’t understand anything as they need too…. I suppose you’ll learn this little lesson as you move into spiritual maturity….. IN the Lord, Gary…….


    Btw tnelson, I agree with you 100%……..
     
  17. Istherenotacause

    Istherenotacause
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2003
    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    0
    I suppose I can agree that we can disagree, Brother Gary, since this was directed at me. I am not unteachable, but I do believe I have shown you scripturally in context that water in these two passages is literal, not spiritual, as you claim. Now John 4, Jesus speaking of the water that he shall give is a totally different story, that being "living water" sprining up into everlasting life, not quite the same water there is it master Gary?
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. moeowo

    moeowo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2003
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree completely.


     
  19. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    The passage does say you must be born of water of and of the spirit. But no where does it mention baptism. Many assume that water is equated with baptism. That is a wrong assumption. What does it mean to be born again. This verse gives two agents whereby a man is born again, and only two: water and the spirit. This is what Jesus said. We cannot add to God's Word. There are only these two agents whereby a man is born again. We surely can agree that a man is born again by the Holy Spirit. That is what the word "spirit" refers to. Then what does the word "water" refer to? Only Scripture can tell us.

    John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    --Water, like the Word of God, is a cleansing agent. Jesus uses the picture of water as something that cleanses. But it is not the water that cleanses. It is the Word of God. It is clear here in John 15:3. You are clean through the Word.

    James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
    --The word "begat" makes reference to being born again. We are born again with the word of truth. That is what James is saying here. It is through the Word of God that one is born again. Remember that there are only two agents by which a man is born again.

    1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    --It very plainly says here that we are born again by the Word of God. There are only two agents by which a man is born again: the Word of God, and the Spirit of God. Thus "water" must refer to the Word of God. Man is not born of God through baptism, neither through any other kind of physical water. Scripture plainly teaches that one must be born again through the Word of God and of the Spirit of God.
    DHK
     

Share This Page

Loading...