Both Camps Limit The...

No, but then the OT sacrificial atonement did not take away sin. But whatever it did do (the outward cleansing, dealing with ceremonial uncleanness), it did for the whole nation.

Jesus's sacrifice is patterned after this. His sacrifice was made "in order to sanctify the people through his own blood," only unlike the OT sacrifices, his sacrifice really took away their sins and cleansed their consciences.

 

Ok.
You stated in your #1:

everything in [ ] are added for clarity (hopefully )

Secondly:
You asked in your #2:

everthing in [ ] are added for clarity.

Post 11 clears much of this up since I am basically showing the same things in shorter form here which is elaborated more clearly there.

 

No, that is not what we are saying brother.

We are saying that the Sacrifice of Atonement was made on behalf of all of Israel, and this sacrifice dealt with sin. But not everyone under that Atoning sacrifice was saved since it is received by faith.

Does that Atonement cleanse those who were in active rebellion against God but Jews? Did it clease those who were not repentant of their idolitry, adultries, and other sins they desired to continue in, even though they were Jews?

The answer: Of Course Not. The propitiatory merit of the Atonement was applied to those of faith who received it as a substitutionary payment of their sins.

We are saying there were those who were not cleansed under the Atoning Sacrifice, though it was made in and on behalf of all the Jews.
Since the Majority of Jews WERE repenant and seeking this (which is the Nation or National sense), the others (though small in number) were not included in the benifits of the Atonement because it was not received of them by faith.

the Atonement by itself imparts nothing to anyone of itself. Scripture states it must be received through faith in order to justify us in Christ before a Holy God.

 

Then please address my posting in Post #11 which regards the followers of the Anti-Christ and the fact that scripture states they are condemned "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. "
Remember, this was said of the Anti-Christ's followers.

It was Limited then this scripture makes God a liar.
If Christ did not make an Atonement for them, then there is no way God can make the statement 'that they might be SAVED'.

Please go back and elaborate for me on Post #11.

 

I beleive it was both in scope.

Universal in that it fulfilled the requirments of the Law for the Sacrifice of Atonement. (the Law condemns though it shows the way)

But Particular in that was to redeem those of faith whom God foreknew. (Grace frees us from condemnation through faith)

Thus All men are justly condemned and aquitted in Christ alone.

 

I'm not sure if this is directed to me or not, but I think Hebrews tells us that the OT sacrifices were unable to take away sins. Those people in the OT who had their sins forgiven had them forgiven through Christ's sacrifice, which was able to take away sins.

 

Allan,

Thank you for post 11. It is a very good post and very clear. I am waiting along with you to see if a calvinist will respond to it...

 

I believe the text in the big bold type is a purpose statement. The reason someone receives the love of the truth is "so as to be saved." Since they didn't receive the love of the truth, "so as to be saved" doesn't apply to them.

 

Brother, you have not answered the question but side stepped to every position I already agree with.

Yes, all those whom God gave to Christ will be saved.
Yes, they are condemned because of their refusal to acknowledge Christ
And your #4 is established in the very portion of scripture I have already given. It is no surprize, since God sealed them in their unbelief.

But what you neglect to address is that scripture states 'that they might be SAVED'. If atonement is limited then THIS statement is false and therefore God is a liar since it is known already they will be condemned and not savable. YET God states they will not believe the truth that THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. Again if atonement is limited to only those who believe then these Christ rejecters COULD NOT, nay CAN NOT be potentially much less hypothetically saved EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO BELEIVE. Yet scripture specifically states 'that they MIGHT BE SAVED' regarding those whom are forknown to reject and deny Christ.

 

Exactly, so until they DID reject it, it (salvation) was applicable TO them previously.

 

One last thing:

2. Regarding Limited - It is not that they can not be saved not because they reject the truth but because no atonement was made on their behalf. Regardless of belief, if no atonement was made no salvation can be applicable. So if the scripture states they COULD have been saved it mandates Atonement for them MUST have been made.

4. Same as #2.

 

Fine (and I scripturally disagree though ). Then please deal with the text provided that states those who will be condemnded do to rejecting the truth might have been saved. As I stated previously:

It is the most straight forward text regarding the Lost 'might have been saved', and no salvation can be forth coming unless Atonement is made on their behalf. Otherwise it is a lie, period.

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours ONLY, but the sins of the whole World.

 

When in their lives were they ever NOT "not receiving the love of the truth"?