Bottom line...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by ScottEmerson, Sep 22, 2003.

  1. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
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    What is required for a person to be saved? Please list all the things that must be accomplished for a person to pass from non-saved to saved. I'd am interested to see if we agree or disagree on this point, and who we include or exclude in salvation based upon our definition.

    Personally, I believe that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and trusts Him as Lord and Saviour is saved. Period. There is my definition.
     
  2. Molly

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    Faith in Christ alone.... [​IMG] This faith will produce these actions:

    1)Belief in the gospel(birth,death,and resurrection)...I guess this is the same as faith... :D
    2)Confession with the mouth
    3)Repentance-turning from sin

    Molly
     
  3. massdak

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    my question to you then is what about those especially cathlics that believe that baptism needs to be added also and doing sacraments and last rites and purgatory to finish the process toward salvation?
    have your read galations?
     
  4. timothy 1769

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    Mark 16:15
    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Acts 2:37
    Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Luke 13:2
    And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    James 2:19
    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Romans 10:12
    For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

    Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    2Corinthians 7:9
    Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    Hebrews 5:8
    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

    Revelation 22:16
    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Yes, I have intentionally thrown in some "problem" verses (for most baptists, anyway).

    [ September 22, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: timothy 1769 ]
     
  5. ScottEmerson

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    Just answer the question. What is needed for salvation? (And check the catechism again for what is needed for salvation as far as Catholic doctrine is concerned - I think you've got some errant information about Catholic theology...)
     
  6. massdak

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    Just answer the question. What is needed for salvation? (And check the catechism again for what is needed for salvation as far as Catholic doctrine is concerned - I think you've got some errant information about Catholic theology...) [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]look scott i have read many of the catechisms and also their anathema against faith alone in Christ alone. if you are going spread catholic doctrine as also another viable gospel for Christianity, then i must warn you once again dont do it. or i will mark you and warn others to avoid you and your doctrine.
     
  7. ScottEmerson

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    As you have read these catechisms, please instruct us as to where we can find sacraments as being necessary for entrance into heaven. Remember that doctrine is not gospel. I've shared in the other post, I believe, about the Catholics rationale for believing that works are a necessary evidence of salvation (It's in James). I'd love for you to show me where in the Bible is says that unless one believes in faith alone, he or she will go to Hell whether they believe Jesus is Lord or not.
     
  8. massdak

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    As you have read these catechisms, please instruct us as to where we can find sacraments as being necessary for entrance into heaven. Remember that doctrine is not gospel. I've shared in the other post, I believe, about the Catholics rationale for believing that works are a necessary evidence of salvation (It's in James). I'd love for you to show me where in the Bible is says that unless one believes in faith alone, he or she will go to Hell whether they believe Jesus is Lord or not. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]are you going to dance around this issue? shall i copy and paste the catholic anathema against faith alone? does that not answer your rationale? are you not familiar with the reformation? are you ignorant of the Christian doctrine and baptist stance on biblical salvation? you need to review your beliefs. read galations and understand why works mixed with Christ will make grace of no effect. why call works evidence of salvation as the catholics position? a play on words will not make it anything other then a different gospel. what is different between the catholic doctrine and baptist toward salvation? if you do not see any difference but only religious form, then you are blind.
     
  9. ScottEmerson

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    I've asked for proof here, and you haven't posted any. It is ont me who is dancing.

    I know where their rationale for that comes. It comes from a passage that says specifically, "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:22)

    I'm quite familiar. I'm also familiar with the idea that doctrine does not save a person. Salvation purchased by the blood of Christ saves a person.

    The Catholic doctrine teaches that works are an evidence of faith. No works, no faith. I believe that the Biblical author, James, would agree. "Faith without works is dead."

    Again, how? Is the book of James teaching a different gospel?

    Since you have not answered the initial question, here is a second. Does doctrine save and/or does doctrine damn?
     
  10. Trotter

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    Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought this was called the BAPTIST Board. There is a forum for other religions elsewhere on the site...

    The question was what do YOU believe is required for salvation, not what does the Catholic church think.

    Salvation requires acceptance of what Jesus did in our place, belief in His deity, life, death, and ressurection, and confessing Him as your Lord and Savior. Baptism should follow as a public display of your inward change.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  11. GODzThunder

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    Salvation requires something that I am ashamed to say many Churches do not recognize.
    repentance...


    To be saved first one must recognize and repent of their sins (that means you must know you are a sinner lost and must willingly desire to turn away from that sin).

    Then you must accept Christ as your personal savior recognizing that he Died willingly on the cross to become a propitiation for those sins.

    You cannot turn to Christ until you turn from your sins, you cannot serve two masters. You must leave one to join another.
     
  12. Gunther

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    The simple answer is found in Romans 10:9-13.

    9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    11. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

    12. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

    13. for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

    However, several things are implied in that passage that are non-negotiables.

    First, we see that it is a confessing faith. It isn't something you hide within yourself. Christ said that if you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father and his angels. Any deviance is not saving faith.

    Second, we see that the object of our faith is Jesus Christ the Lord. You cannot deny his lordship. You cannot invent your own Jesus. You aren't given liberty to pick and choose the aspects of Christ. Any deviance is not saving faith.

    Third, we see that you must believe that God has raised Christ from the dead. So that means he actually did die (not swoon) and that he was actually raised. Any deviance is not saving faith.

    Fourth, we see that faith is something that involves our being, not just our head. It isn't just the facts of the gospel that must be acknowledged. You must believe them to be truth. Any deviance is not saving faith.

    Fifth, we see that it is an assurance faith. Ah, this one will hang alot of people. If God is not able to keep his word, you have no faith. If you doubt God's ability to keep his word, you have no faith. For the perfect example, read very closely Romans 4. Abraham's justifying faith involved assurance. What does that say for those who think you can lose your salvation? Isn't it obvious? Any deviance is not saving faith.

    Sixth, we see that one cannot trust in his genetic code as a help to salvation. If you are a Jew or a Gentile, salvation is the same and you have no advantage over the other. Any deviance is not saving faith.

    Seventh, you must rely on the mercy of God. That is why we call upon him to save us. We can't save ourselves. That indicates we are helpless to effect salvation. He must be the one to accomplish it. Any deviance is not saving faith.

    Okay, so these things are assumed by Paul. If you were to read through Romans, you will see that he has already built up his case for this.

    In chapter one, he specifies that Christ is the son of David, raised by the Spirit and declared to be the Son of God. Deny this and you really were never saved. So Paul believes in the humanity and deity of Christ. Any deviance is not saving faith.

    So, correct doctrine on the person of Christ is a must.

    Now, you might ask if a person has to know all this up front. My answer would be no. However, as he grows in knowledge, he will agree with it all. Any deviance is not saving faith.
     
  13. ScottEmerson

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    Some questions, Gunther:

    So anyone who thinks that a person can lose his or her salvation is not saved? Is that your position?

    So according to your definition, Catholics (who believe in eternal security apparently) are saved. Good. Now about the eternal security question...
     
  14. massdak

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    I've asked for proof here, and you haven't posted any. It is ont me who is dancing.

    I know where their rationale for that comes. It comes from a passage that says specifically, "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:22)

    I'm quite familiar. I'm also familiar with the idea that doctrine does not save a person. Salvation purchased by the blood of Christ saves a person.

    The Catholic doctrine teaches that works are an evidence of faith. No works, no faith. I believe that the Biblical author, James, would agree. "Faith without works is dead."

    Again, how? Is the book of James teaching a different gospel?

    Since you have not answered the initial question, here is a second. Does doctrine save and/or does doctrine damn?
    </font>[/QUOTE]scott read canon 24 it shows how wrong you have been the proof tells they do not use works as fruit of salvation but to add to it. i am sorry but you are very wrong and need to review your beliefs as i have told you

    Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone...let him be anathema.
    Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins...let him be anathema.
    Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
    Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.
    Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.
    Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ...does not truly merit an increase of grace and eternal life... let him be anathema.
     
  15. Lorelei

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    James 2:22 can't contradict Ephesians 2:8-10.

    It says here he is "showing" you his faith (that already existed and saved him). The faith is what saved, the fact that it was "saving faith" is proven by the fact that there is evidence (works, sometimes called "fruits") of that faith. Others had "faith" too, but it wasn't a saving "faith", their faith did not produce works, so it was "dead." Works are proof that the "faith" was placed in the proper thing, they have no saving power in themselves. We are told this in Ephesians.

    Paul eternally condemned people for preaching another gospel. What was this gospel? It was teacing works was necessary for salvation. They were eternally condemned for teaching this:

    Alot of religions get their "reasonings" from scriptures taken out of context. The Bible is clear, it is salvation by grace, not works. Otherwise grace is no longer "grace."

    These verses confirm what I said about James. We are saved by grace which caused us to "do" good works.

    As for my answer to the original question:

    One is saved by grace through faith alone (Eph 2:8-10)in the true Jesus that is taught in the Bible when you believe that he died on the cross, was buried and rose from the dead (1 Cor 15:3-4). You can't believe in a "man" named Jesus, or merely speak some "magical" words in order to stay out of hell. It must be a real, life changing belief that when you accept Christ, you are given new life (Rom 8:10) and become a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). Your faith will be evidenced by your fruit and works, but those works will ONLY be able to be accomplished through the power of the Spirit, no flesh or selfless effort will be pleasing to God (Rom 8:5-8).

    ~Lorelei
     
  16. ScottEmerson

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    All you have to do is go to the Council of Trent and fill in the "..." to see just how much of this is based upon prooftexts that are being taken from their context.

    Hmm... Wonder, why there are parentheses here? Read the actual Canon 9, and we see that you're missing the boat.

    What you've missed here: "If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost,[116] and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema."

    Hmm... So what it is REALLY saying is that if we exclude the Holy Spirit in salvation, we're wrong. Do you disagree with that?

    I can be as confident as I want, but unless I have true faith in Christ Jesus, my confidence means nothing. I was confident for years about my salvation, until I truly gave my life to Christ. Why would you disagree with this?

    In one of the ones that are left out, we understand what is meant be confidence: "If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified, or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema."

    One must believe in Jesus Christ, not just believe that he or she is saved.

    And this does, indeed, disagree with our Baptist principles. However, we notice that the righteousness has ALREADY been received, so it is not given because of good works. The salvation has already occurred through belief in Christ Jesus. You don't see this as saying a person is saved through works, do you?

    So they believe in purgatory. How does this negate their salvation?

    Now, let's look at some other canons in this document:

    1: If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

    Wow! Sounds exactly like us, huh?

    10: If anyone says that men are justified without the justice of Christ, whereby Her merited for us, or by that justice are formally just, let him be anathema.

    Again - that's us!

    Why don't you strive to read the whole document, instead of relying upon faulty prooftexts that leave out the Truth?
     
  17. Jailminister

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    Scott, I am sure you can find some Catholics that are saved, but as I said if they are saved they "will come out of her".
     
  18. ScottEmerson

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    Which says that we were not saved by our works alone. The Catholics agree: "Canon 1: (Council of Trent on Justification) If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema."

    We are also told this in the Council of Trent on Justification. Catholics do not believe that a person is justified through their works, at least officially.

    Then by this same logic, James would appear to be eternally condemned. Where is the evidence that the different gospel refers to those who don't believe in faith alone? Personally, I would say that this gospel is anything that would say that salvation can be obtained apart from the simple belief in Jesus Christ.

    Again, the Catholic Church says that salvation comes from belief in Jesus Christ, and in Christ alone.


    That is what is missing. There is so much anti-Catholic stuff out there, that people won't actually take a close look at what they actually believe.

    According to the Catholic Church, salvation comes from belief and the divine grace of Jesus Christ.
     
  19. ScottEmerson

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    And you're missing the whole point. I know wonderful Catholic men and women who raise Catholic children who truly love the Lord and are faithful to Him in all things. They remain in the Catholic Church.
     
  20. Jailminister

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    Scott you are missing the point. They may be as nice as can be, but their theolgy is wrong. I know Jehovah Witness that are nice folks, but their theology is wrong. Same with Mormons. If they raise their children in the catholic church and they do not see the lie they are involved with then maybe they are not saved. Maybe they just are religious. It is more than a belief, it is repentance and turning away from iniquity.

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     

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