Business As Usual In The Anglican Church

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Aug 17, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Frankly, I don't see what all the fuss is about the Episcopal church ordaining a sexual deviant as Bishop. The Anglican church originally split from Rome so King Henry VIII could dump his wife. In England as well as colonial America they Anglicans persecuted Baptists and others who would not confrom to their religion.

    They have tolerated ministers and teachers who deny the virgin birth, the resurrection, the creation, the inspiration of the Scriptures and many other doctrines of Christianity. So why would anyone be shocked that they now have come out in favor of sexual perversion?

    All this talk about the recent appointment of an impenitent pervert to the Episcopacy reminds me of a quote I read several years in B. Evans "History of the Early English Baptists." In volume one on pages 124 and 125 of that work Evan's quotes a writer named "Traheron" who lamented the horrible condition of the Anglican clergy during the Elizabethian era:

    "It might, perchance, be pardoned if they spent some weeks in pleasure; they wallow continually in vile voluptousness and wanton dalliance, or waste all their unhappie daies in beastlie delites; neither can change of women, nor women only, satisfie their filthie, abominable desires."

    And,

    "For what idolatry, what pride, what coveteousness, what cruelty, what lechery, what sodomity, was ever heard of in any ages, that they have not far exceeded? Thou canst not name a bishop, but thou shalt see his tongue swollen with blasphemy, his fingers dripping with the blood of innocents, his body shattered with most filthy villainy; and the rest of thy Egyptian shaulings strive which shall pass others farthest in all kinds of beastly abomination."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    I respect the fact that there are people in the Anglican Church who oppose the election of a homosexual as bishop. But I am also quite confused in that neither V. Gene Robinson's homosexuality nor his service as a "minister" (called a canon, I think) in the Episcopal church are anything new. He was already (and had been for 17 years) the assistant to the bishop of the diocese of New Hampshire. Why have people not already been "up in arms" or why have they not already "walked out"?
    :confused:
     
  3. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    as an "insider", the typical approach of Anglicans has always been to work from within. Threats have been made in te past to walk out, but compromises have been made. I, of course, am speaking for the Church of England in the UK and in Canada.

    Leaving is not as simple as walking out of a baptist church. Even in Convention Baptist Churches, walking out is not as simple as it may appear.

    One, the denomination owns the buildings, and when one walks out they have nothing. In Anglican circles, there is the name and the tradition that goes along with that name. The name Anglican belongs to the Church of England. Ebenezer Baptist just becomes Faith Baptist or some such moniker.

    There have been similar situations in baptist circles. I suppose most here are too young to remember the Likes of Harry Emerson Fosdick, or in Canada, the McMaster University fiasco and the expulsions of preachers like Dr. T.T. Shields.

    I don't expect some baptists to understand this, but it doesn't really matter.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  4. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    Jim, I guess my question is why the strong adverse reaction now, when there were/are already homosexual ministers in the church?
     
  5. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    And why weren't they up in arms when many of the Anglican/Episcopal clergy was for generations denying the principal doctrines of Christianity?

    Horrible though the sin of sodomy is, a man might be a sodomite and also a child of God (albeit a disobedient one). But it isn't possible for a man who doesn't believe in Christ to be a child of God - and many Episcopal clergymen no more believe in Christ than they believe in Mother Goose.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    In Canada, when an Anglican Church needs a new minister, the Bishop offers a list of available men or women and it is the choice of the church to accept or reject. A person from outside the area can be appointed, especially if the congregation has a history of evangelicalism. So, it can be handled from within, in this sense.

    I am not aware of any ordained gay ministers in the Anglican Church in Canada. Certainly not practising homosexual ministers.

    I am not saying I agree with the system, but simply explaining how it works, having grown up in the Church of England and presently worshipping in an Anglican Church.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Jim,

    Whatever takes place in an Anglican Church it is not the worship of God. For Christ said that they who worship must worship in spirit and in truth. The Anglican church does not worship in spirit nor in truth and therefore it's "worship" is but a vanity.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  8. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Phoenix,

    Surely it makes sense. Being a child of God does not preclude a man from sinning. A child of God is capable of commiting any immorality that an unsaved man can commit. We have instances in the Scriptures of children of God who commited adultery, murder, incest, drunkeness, lying, denying Christ.....not to mention the fact that every child of God knows he has done things against the will of the Father.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  9. Kiffin

    Kiffin
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    That is a very broad statement. It implies you know what goes on in every Anglican Church. Certaintly the ECUSA is on the road to apostasy but I am pretty certain there will be a break off soon from what I have read. The ECUSA is only one portion of the Anglican communion. Other Anglican bodies such as the Reformed Episcopal Church, AMIA and Asian and African Anglican churches are very conservative as are a few ECUSA churches.

    The Anglican Church has a spotted history at times (of course that could be said about Baptists also) but it's influence on us has been tremendous. From the Church of Engand we get the

    1.King James Version

    2. The most famous hymn of all time "Amazing Grace" wrote by Anglican priest John Newton

    3. Probably the Greatest hymn writer of all time -Charles Wesley

    4. Practically all the Founding Fathers were Anglicans

    5. Great Evangelists such as George Whitefield and John Wesley
     
  10. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    Thank you Kiffen.

    As well, we are the beneficiaries of the great Anglican theologians such as Bishop Trent and his book on the parables, and Alfred Edersheim, who prolly wrote the best series on the life of Christ ever written.

    There are countless other theologians out of Oxford and Cambridge who rightly defended the faith.

    I first heard the gospel in the Church of England and received the Lord Jesus Christ there. What is happening these days grieves many Anglicans the world over. Just as Baptists were shaken in 1925 when the modernist movement took over so many great Baptist universities and churches.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  11. Kiffin

    Kiffin
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    Amen, Jim.
     
  12. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    That is a very broad statement. It implies you know what goes on in every Anglican Church. Certaintly the ECUSA is on the road to apostasy but I am pretty certain there will be a break off soon from what I have read. The ECUSA is only one portion of the Anglican communion. Other Anglican bodies such as the Reformed Episcopal Church, AMIA and Asian and African Anglican churches are very conservative as are a few ECUSA churches.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Kiffin,

    The official teaching of the Anglican church is little more than Catholicism without the Pope. They believe in infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, the possibility of final apostacy, union of church and state, episcopal government and apostolic succession, to name of few. So being a "conservative" Anglican only means that an Anglican believes more of the traditional Anglican heresies than does a liberal Anglican.

    A "spotted" history indeed! The Anglican church was born out of King Henry's lust, suckled on Baptist blood, and fattened on modernist infidelism.

    Sure, there have been Baptist churches which have engaged in all sorts of abominations but that is a moot point. Each Baptist church stands or falls on it's own. The Anglican communion stands as a unit and therefore falls as a unit. As long as a congregation remains in the fellowship of the whole, they are guilty of all. As John said,

    "He that biddeth him godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  13. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    I fully realize that anything that is said to you is for naught, but, did you know that the Church of England does not believe in baptismal regeneration anymore than does the Presbyterian Church. Up to and including, Queen Elizabeth I, the Church of England baptized by immersion. There are still baptistries in some Anglican churches, and if a congregant asks for immersion, the vicar must comply.

    The Queen is the head of the Church of England, and that hardly allows for successionism. All officers are duly elected to office by a majority vote, except the Archbishop, who is selected by the Queen and the Prime Minister. Hardly successionism.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Jim,

    That right there says it all.

    "I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man."

    And,

    "And gave him [Christ] to be head over all things to the church."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    "African Anglican churches"? Talk about an oxymoron!

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  16. ScottEmerson

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    I have several African Anglican friends. They're white, from South Africa. Not all Africans are black, and many of the white Africans who are there either descended from or moved from England.
     
  17. Jimmy C

    Jimmy C
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    As soon as we recognize that Mark O is the final authority life will be better for all.

    To summarize some of his postions
    1. Youth Ministry is of no use
    2. Slaves should never have been freed
    3. southern Baptist churches were correct in not supporting the abolishment of slavery
    4. Any church other than the one copastored by he and Kent Wicher are apostate - especially that big SBC church that keeps growing to the detriment of his church.
    5. Humor is also bad, there is no room for it in the church!

    I'm sure the Lord will have a specail little section of heaven reserved for Mark and a few of his followers so they wont have to associate with the rest of us
     
  18. Kiffin

    Kiffin
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    Wrong, Mark. The Anglican Church was built upon Reformation theology and has aspects of Lutheranism, Calvinism in their official doctrinal statement The 39 articles of Religion and the The Book of Common Prayer

    True, but so do most Protestant churches.

    Historically they have not held to baptismal regeneration. Even many today do not and those who do hold to the Lutheran view of baptismal regeneration which is differant from the Roman Catholic view of infused grace. They however do not teach or hold to the Catholic view.

    Wrong. Anglican theology in both the Prayer Book and the 39 articles is rooted in Calvin's Perseverance of the saints. The Arminian view is not the official teaching of the Church.

    The Church of England does but not necessarily all Anglican communities.

    True but how many Baptist churches have a Deacon board as a governing body? That is as scriptural as having a archbishop in Canterbury.
    Then they have much in common with Landmark Baptists but that doesn't make Landmarkers heretics. [​IMG]


    Actually the Anglican Church as we know it had it's birth after King Henry's death when Archbishop Cranmer put together the The Book of Common Prayer that embraced Reformation theology. Cranmer along with bishops Ridley and Latimer were later put to death by the Catholics for embracing Faith Alone for salvation.

    Actually many of them may be breaking fellowship with the ECUSA.
     
  19. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes
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    Maybe we should reach out to our brothers and sisters in this church with arms of love, rather than shouting that they are sinners doomed to the judgment of God. This is an opportunity for major ministry that most of us are missing out on. We should pray for them, than reach out to be part of the solution, not throw kerosene on an open flame.

    In His Grip,
    joshua
     

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