But when that which is perfect is come.....1Cor13:8-13

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Ps104_33, Nov 26, 2001.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    In 1 cor 13:8-13, what do you think that Paul is talking about here, the word of God or the second coming of Christ. Although I dont believe in tongues as practiced in most charismatic and pentacostal churches, I think alot of the teaching on this verse comes as reaction to the modern tongues movement as I cant find a commentary prior to 1900 to support the teaching that it's talking about the word of God.
     
  2. Kurt The Baptist

    Kurt The Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2001
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul
     
  3. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    In answer to your question, Both.

    I believe that Jesus is the Perfect Word of God, and will be present on the earth at the Second Coming.

    Some would view the closing of the canon as the arrival of that which is perfect, I am not convinced either way.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Love the CLARITY of the orginal while the English translations (take your pick) leave much to be desired.

    "When that which is perfect is come" - the word "that" is a neuter demonstrative pronoun. It can ONLY refer to some noun (not given for us) that is likewise neuter.

    So while we cannot say with definity what "that" IS, we can definitely rule out what "that" IS NOT.

    So the partial and special revelations of God will stop when "that" THING (neuter) is come:

    Can't be . . .
    Jesus = masculine noun in Greek
    Christ = masculine noun in Greek
    Second Coming = feminine noun in Greek
    Church = feminine noun in Greek
    End of the Age = masculine noun in Greek

    Hmmm. So what word IS "neuter" and refers to the revealed message of God?

    BIBLE! = neuter noun in Greek (Biblion)

    Again, can't say for sure, as there are hundreds of OTHER neuter nouns. But boy howdy, this one fits the bill.

    Tongues, prophesies, revelations of God will cease when "that thing" (THE BIBLE) is come!
     
  5. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lu 1:35
    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also thatholy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
     
  6. John Wells

    John Wells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yea, one must really wonder where the KJV translators came up with "thing!" The NKJV and many other translations have done a better job in this particular instance, disagreeing with the KJV.

    And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. ESV

    And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. NKJV

    The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. NASB95

    The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called a the Son of God. NIV

    The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will cover you. Therefore, the child will be holy and will be called the Son of God. ISV

    The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby born to you will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God. NLT

    [ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    25
    D. A. Carson, in his book Showing the Spirit says there are three basic groups of theories on this passage:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. It has been strongly argued that "perfection" refers to the maturity of the church, or the maturity of individual believers...
    2. It has also been strongly argued that the "perfection" is the completed canon itself...
    3. The third and majority interpretation is that "perfection" is related to the parousia...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree with the second position, and for basically the same reasons given by Bob Griffin. But Carson, who is a Greek scholar, is able to sidestep this 'gender objection' by saying "(t)he objection is without merit, for 'perfection' is not the parousia itself, but the state of affairs brought about by the arrival of the parousia (second coming)." [from pages 68 & 69]
     
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    I guess all of us interpret with theological bias. Carson is a great exegetical master, but his theology DEMANDS the conclusion he came up with.

    If we all started out 'tabular rasa' and followed the revelation progressively, we may end up with a different theology.
     
  9. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't believe the "that which is perfect" is the Bible, but rather the state we will enjoy as perfected saints. The "that" of verse 10 is referring to the "then" of verse 12.
     
  10. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Context, context, context. Paul is talking about revelation in the preceding verses. Verses 8 & 9 say "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies (revelation of future events), they shall fail; whether there be tongues (present revelation of doctrine), they shall cease; whether there be knowledge (revelation of polity, etc.), it shall vanish away. For we know (a form of revelation) in part, and we prophesy (another form of revelation) in part."

    Now notice verse 10. "But when that (there is no subject in this sentence, only an adjective standing in for the understood subject supplied by the preceding context, revelation) which is perfect is come, then that (revelation) which is in part shall be done away."

    Paul then makes it perfectly clear in verse 13 that the revelatory gifts were no longer being given even when he wrote these words of scripture for he says "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three;" - the revelatory gifts were no longer being given so no new believers were getting these gifts, but later he says, regarding those who already had the gift, "forbid not to speak with tongues." The gift was not taken away from those already gifted saints, but would slowly die out as they grew old and went to be with the Lord.

    What is often overlooked in this discussion is that the "that which is perfect" is exactly the same things as the "that which is in part." You have to plug in the same understood noun in both places. Of those things suggested, Christ, the second coming, spiritual maturity, or church maturity, none of them makes sense except the revelation of God in the form of the bible. Let's see how they all fit:

    "But when that (Christ) which is perfect is come, then that (Christ) which is in part shall be done away."

    "But when that (second coming) which is perfect is come, then that (second coming) which is in part shall be done away."

    "But when that (spiritual maturity) which is perfect is come, then that (spiritual maturity) which is in part shall be done away."

    "But when that (revelation) which is perfect is come, then that (revelation) which is in part shall be done away."

    Only the last one:

    "But when that (revelation; in the form of the bible) which is perfect is come, then that (revelation; in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) which is in part shall be done away."

    The gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge did not give the whole picture. They only gave part of the picture, and were thus "in part." But the bible gives the whole revelation of God, and is therefore "perfect" or complete and mature, nothing lacking.

    [ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  11. qwerty

    qwerty
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    0
    The following is from the web site: http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/1co/1co12-14.htm
    Greg Herrick, Ph.D.


    Others argue that tevleio" refers to the completion of the canon or the completion of Scripture. There are at least two reasons why such an identification is to be rejected. First, neither Paul nor the Corinthians were canon conscious. To attribute such an idea to them, is pure anachronism. Second, if tevleio" refers to the canon, then the assumption is that the canon is a complete, exhaustive revelation, with the result that one can experience a "face to face" revelation of God. Such is simply not true. The Bible is a sufficient revelation for the present age, but it is not an exhaustive one. Concerning the sufficiency of Scripture, the biggest issue is the equivocal use of language and man's fallen condition distorting the reading and apprehension of inscripturated revelation.49 Third, this view ignores the fact that the contrast is with the present time and the eschaton (13:12).
     
  12. Jefferson

    Jefferson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2001
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    By comparing scripture with scripture notice Colossians 1:25, "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you to fulfill the word of God." (KJV)

    Additionally, my Scofield KJV has a side-note for the word "fulfill" which side-note says, "complete."
     
  13. Kiffin

    Kiffin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is always a danger in basing a theology on one verse of scripture. "that which is perfect" is the Bible is shaky at best since the context is referring to the Second Coming. If it is referring to the Bible when did that time come? After John wrote the last of Revelation? After the Bible was Canonized in the 4th century?

    Church History does not say the revelatory gifts had ended. Ireanous, Augustine and other Church Fathers describe healings and other miracles taking place in their time. Unfortunately many in the Reformed Camp and Dispensational camp depend on one verse of scripture to base this theology when the Bible has not said these gifts have vanished.
     

Share This Page

Loading...