buying the lie

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by nodak, Aug 13, 2010.

  1. nodak

    nodak
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    In discussions of gender roles, who can be ordained, or the feminine church, the old lie usually comes up that UNLESS women are allowed to do exactly what men can do, they are being forced into a subservient role.

    Uh, no. Not hardly.

    That means buying the lie that women's lib tried to peddle years ago: that is, those roles, jobs, activities, or stations that were traditionally male are of high intrinsic value and status. Those roles, jobs, activities, or stations that were traditionally female are of little or no intrinsic value and status. So unless a woman can be like a man, she is worthless.

    How very insulting to women!

    By that logic, then blind people in my state are subservient to sighted people and of less worth--after all, they are not allowed a driver's license.

    Men are subservient to women and of less worth--they cannot lactate or gestate.

    People of good faith may understand the scriptures differently. Some may believe they teach women cannot be ordained and some that they can be ordained.

    Both cannot be right, obviously.

    But that doesn't mean it is about subservience at all.

    And trying to claim that it is about fairness truly misses the idea that God's ways are not our ways, nor His thoughts our thoughts.
     
  2. Jim1999

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    You are assuming an opinion as being the facts, so what is the point?

    We just erase the mention of female leaders in scripture and correct the fact to support your presumed viewpoint.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Havensdad

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    Jim,

    With all due respect, the New Testament does not mention female pastors or elders, anywhere. Paul was pretty clear that this is not allowed. There may well be female deacons...but deacons, contrary to much Baptist opinion, are basically waiters; not leaders. Yes, women and men are both allowed to serve food, and take care of the physical needs of the Church. But only men are allowed to be elders/pastors.
     
  4. nodak

    nodak
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    Wow, Jim, either I presented my idea very poorly or you completely misread me.

    My point is this: whether or not women should be ordained is a Biblical issue.

    My other point is this: it isn't a matter of gender politics, of what is fair or not fair, or what men or women want.

    Usually in this type of debate someone will go afield and define not ordaining women as subjugation of women.

    That isn't the issue.

    The issue is does the Bible say it is ok, or not.

    As I said in my original post, and will try to say more clearly here: Some folks believe the Bible approves of it. Some folks say the Bible forbids it.

    If you are agin it, show me by the scriptures. If you approve of it, show me by the scriptures.

    But let's leave out the lie that the reason women have not been ordained historically was just to keep us women "in our place." That lie carries with it the idea that everything women have done historically is somehow "less than" the really important stuff all those men have been doing.

    Sorry, but the traditional female stuff was just as important as all that important stuff the men were doing.

    My plea was to leave out gender politics aka the battle of the sexes and debate what scripture says.
     
  5. jaigner

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    Paul was pretty clear that this was not allowed in a specific context. It would seem to be clear cultural accommodation, which happens throughout the Bible to accomplish the greater good.
     
  6. Zenas

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    I'm not sure what context you're referring to. However, let's consider the apostles, ordained by Christ Himself. They were all men. Jesus was never a slave to culture or customs. In fact He often went against it. So Jesus didn't leave out women because of a cultural accommodation. Moreover, there were several women who would have fit into this role quite nicely--Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha of Bethany, Mary the mother of Jesus to name a few. Yet He ordained none of them. Why? I don't know, but I do know we should follow Christ's example in this matter.
     
  7. RAdam

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    If it was a cultural accomodation, then explain to me the command to husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. That command went totally and completely against the culture of that day.
     
  8. canadyjd

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    You are correct.

    The specific context was leadership with the church fellowship (elders).

    Paul did not refer to "culture" when he gave his reasons for male leadership. He referred to the creation. He referred to God's Word.

    The reasons given by Paul for the command of male leadership are inspired by Holy Spirit, founded/ordained by God in the creation, and preserved by God in His Word.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  9. gb93433

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    It won't be soon and that will change drastically if the church keeps doing what it is doing now. So many churches today are aimed at reaching women and children. A woman can do that better than a man. The problem is that we have too many females in the pulpit dressed in a suit and tie but are not leading men in a masculine way.

    In early Baptist history and in the early church led women and children. They baptized women and instructed women. Pastors did not have interaction with women. In some countries today they still do not.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    :thumbs::thumbs: Well said. Scripture is all the truth we need. Debate your position at all times through the exposition of scriptures.
     
  11. sag38

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    In early Baptist history and in the early church led women and children. They baptized women and instructed women. Pastors did not have interaction with women. In some countries today they still do not.

    Please document this especially the underlined part.
     
  12. Mexdeaf

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    Did you miss a word or two in the first sentence?
     
  13. glfredrick

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    Both scripturally and culturally, the issue at hand is whether we adopt an egalitarian or complimentarian view of men and women.

    The egalitarian view is essentially that there is no difference between men and women, and any identity is derived culturally, with differences often seen as "artificial" or "contrived" to either elevate or suppress the rights or women or men, as the case may be. Either can be "head" or otherwise perform the duties often seen as appropriate for the other gender. This is the current prevailing viewpoint for much of th secular world, and it is being adopted into the life of the church (non-specific) largely, but not without issues.

    The complimentarian view is essentially that God created men and woman as different creatures ("male and female He created them..."), with equal worth, though having distinct roles. Roles are not suppressive nor elevative, but rather work to coincide with the created order whereby women are encouraged to embrace their femininity while men are encouraged to embrace their masculinity with distinct biblical roles. The male is specifically the "head" and charged with watchcare over the helpmate, but not to the extent that the male is "king in his castle" or dominating the life of the woman -- equal worth before God eliminating that issue. This is counter-cultural to the secular world today, and indeed is even counter-cultural in the life of many churches (non-specific).

    It is difficult to pick up the Scriptures and argue for an egalitarian worldview. To do so means overlooking the direct passages that teach on that issue in favor of secondary passages that might be seen (perhaps even out of context) as making all persons the same based in the grace or love of God. While those passages exist that blur the distinction between Jew and Gentile, slave and free, man and woman, there are also other very specific texts that expressly stipulate a complimentarian view.

    Note that the Scriptures do not preclude women in positions of authority, nor of women who are successful in the marketplace, etc. Those items are not specifically tied to masculinity and femininity, and to suggest that a woman ought not be successful in the marketplace is to go against the direct examples in the Word (Deborah, Prov 31, Lydia, etc.). There is a difference between actions and position before God. A man can perform the action of washing dishes, caring for children, etc., and a woman can perform the actions of becoming a successful CEO and working the stock market, yet the roles assigned by God do not change. Man is still the head and woman still the helpmate. When we blur "actions" with "position" we start to stray and begin to have difficulties.

    Here is a commendable resource on this issue:
    http://www.cbmw.org/journal/
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Oh, I thought your refering to "TARP will keep people working" my mistake.
     
  15. Jim1999

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    The fellowship of baptist churches, to which I belong, does not support the role of pastor to women, and neither do I. On this we agree.

    The role of deacon is another matter and scripture does support female deacons, which is a leadership role. Romans 16:1, Paul lend special greeting to Phoebe, who was more than a server of tea, if we check out her history and roles in the church.

    Then, I encourage you to read all of Esther again and see the role that women played in that particular era of history. In chapter 4: 14 it says, "And who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this..." Speaking of Mordecai's response to Esther's actions.

    Granted there is not much mention of woman's role in either Old or New Tesaments, and indeed of all history down to the present.

    Culture was changing drastically in New Testament times, and if we ignore culture when we read scripture, we are missing a large of part of understanding what is being said. For example, deaconess are included in the Greek scriptures, yet Timothy writes of a "deacon being the husband of one wife..." He must be dealing with a specific problem arising in those churches to limit his instruction to a man only.

    Then in Corinthians where it talks about the woman's long hair, Paul is addressing the issue of prostitutes who had their hair shorn to embarass them. Let the church woman show their diference with their long hair, a glory to them. We don't get this from scripture directly, but from profane history.......an interpretative tool.

    Hope this explains that I am not knocking anyone's understanding, but offering, perhaps, a little more light from my own study, and that I am not ignoring scripture at all.

    Cheers, and bless,

    Jim
     
  16. RAdam

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    So let me get this straight. Women are better at reaching women and children than men are? Care to prove that.

    If true, I have a question: why in the world would God restrict the office of elder/bishop to men if women are better at reaching women and children? Doesn't make much sense. I suspect that God knows better how to reach women and children than you or I do. I'll trust God's wisdom and believe that a man called by God, fitted by God, and blessed by God can reach the women and children just fine, thank you.
     
  17. Jim1999

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    Why do so many woman's groups invite the pastor to speak at their meetings?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  18. glfredrick

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    It seems fairly silly to say that one gender is better at something than another. That really doesn't play a role in the biblical mandate that I can see. Our position doesn't dictate what we can or cannot do well. It does say that women are not to assume leadership roles in certain capacities, but nothing about whether they are actually qualified to be great teachers.

    Thinking further about the role of women, I've noticed that some otherwise very staunch holders of the "no women leaders" view also seem to support women missionaries. In SBC life, Annie Armstrong and Lottie Moon come immediately to mind. Our national missions, home and international, are named after women missionaries that went out on their own to spread the gospel. In some of the very churches where women are not allowed to speak, large offerings are taken up for these missionaries... Weird, huh... :rolleyes:
     
  19. Jim1999

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    Well, you know that scripture verse that says, "Here am I, Lord, send,,,,her."

    Women teachers! Indeed, at seminary our Hebrew teacher was a woman...Imagine, a woman teaching future pastors, Hebrew and biblical interpretation!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  20. gb93433

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    Common sense. Do you ever have PMS? Do you make babies and have nursing children?

    Your understanding is the same understanding that many men have. They cannot understand why men will not come to church. It is primarily that the pastors do not reach men and are too often more interested in women and children. Do you see the 12 disciples as women.

    Men lead and women follow. It is that simple. Women and men will follow strong leadership. Men will not follow a wuss. God knows that when you reach the man you almost always reach his entire family. He is the leader not her. Also statistics from churches show that. When you reach a woman it is highly unlikely the man will follow her to church.

    If you have a pastor who is dressed in a suit and tie but acts like a woman you will not reach many men, because men are masculine.
     

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