By One Man's Disobedience Many Were Made Sinners

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerry Shugart, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    Without a doubt Romans 5:12-21 is one of the most misunderstood passages of the New Testament. Let us look at verse twelve and notice that Paul says that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned":

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

    From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

    What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verses which follow were written in order to explain how that came about:

    "...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).

    These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

    "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).

    The Conscience, the Knowledge of Good and Evil

    When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said:

    "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22).

    Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

    Clarence Larkin wrote: "Adam and Eve had no conscience before the 'Fall.' Conscience is a knowledge of 'Good' and 'Evil,' and this Adam and Eve did not have until they had their eyes opened by eating of the 'Fruit' of the 'Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' " (Larkin, Rightly Dividing The Word [Rev. Clarence Larkin Est.], 19).

    Dr. Renald E. Showers writes that "Genesis 3:5 and 22 indicate that mankind obtained its awareness of good and evil as a result of eating the forbidden fruit. In other words, the human conscience began when man rebelled against God...Paul indicated that the conscience is the awareness of good and evil which exists inside human beings. It condemns people internally when they do something in the category of evil, and it commends them internally when they do something in the category of good" (Showers, The Second Dispensation, Ankerberg Theological Research Institute).

    All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

    "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).

    So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

    If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants. And "when there is no law,sin is not imputed." If sin is not imputed then there would be no spiritual death.

    So it was in this way that "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Ro.5:19).
     
  2. Iconoclast

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  3. Jerry Shugart

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    I never said that Adam was the law giver.
    Please quote the verse from the third chapter of Romans where Paul says "when Adam sinned...ALL mankind sinned in him."
    If a person comes out of the womb spirtually dead as a result of Adam's sin then common sense dictates that they cannot die spiritually later when they themselves sin.

    Why? Because a person must be alive spiritually before they can die spiritually.

    So we can know that a person is not born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin because Paul says that all men die spiritually because they have all sinned:

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    You have made a mess of scripture here !
     
  5. Jerry Shugart

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    Anyone who thinks that the gospel is for those who are already saved has no credibility on this forum.
     
  6. plain_n_simple

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    Excellent, never saw it put together this way.:thumbs::jesus:
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    The word translated "so" is the Greek term "houtos" and means "after this manner" or "thus" or "according to this manner" and refers to the previous statement as the basis for drawing this conclusion.

    The "death" that came by "on man's offence" was SPIRITUAL DEATH which is the basis that concludes with physical and eternal death. What passed upon all men was spiritual death "by one man's offence" so that many "be dead" is spiritual death.

    It passed upon all men for all men sinned when Adam sinned because the totallity of human nature acted when Adam acted. This is not a matter of imputation but a matter of active participation of the total of humanity consisting and existing in the person of Adam. Eve was derived from Adam and so are all humans through reproduction of like kind.
     
    #7 The Biblicist, Jan 10, 2012
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  8. Jerry Shugart

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    The Greek word houtos does not "refer to the previous statement as the basis for drawing this conclusion."

    Later in the same discourse Paul uses houtos again:

    "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so (houtos) by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).

    If you are right then we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that the reason the free gift came upon all men is because "the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation."
    That is not what Paul said. That idea is nothing but a failed attempt to make the Scriptures conform to the fables invented by men.
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    The Gospel is for those already saved, it is the good news of their Salvation Eph 1:13

    13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Thats elementary to anyone who knows what salvation is !
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    23for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
    This happens at one point in time....


    Sinned (hrmarton).
    Constative second aorist active indicative of amartanw as in 5:12. This tense gathers up the whole race into one statement (a timeless aorist).



    The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20) Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense

    'transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment."

    MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that...

    Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice.

    Leon Morris writes that...

    The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Ibid)
    Vincent writes that the aorist tense means...

    looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin.
    Remember that men and women sin because we are sinners by nature. A plum tree bears plums because it is a plum tree. The fruit is the result of its nature. Sin is the fruit of a sinful heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jer 17:9).
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    You are a blind man! The use of houtos in verse 18 holds true as it did in verse 12. Verse 15-16 first provide the foundation of contrast rather than comparison and so the first phrase provides the basis for the contrast that follows. Hence, "so" (houtos) provides the case that "in like manner" or "after this manner" referring to what ONE MAN did in the previous phrase "SO" or thus did "ONE" in CONTRAST did in the following phrase.

    Again, verses 15-16 set forth the comparison by CONTRAST and "so" (houtos) does mean IN LIKE MANNER but with contrasting results.

    The comparison is by "by....one" whereas the contrast is "offence" versus "righteousness" and "judgement" versus "justification."
     
  12. Jerry Shugart

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    it is you who is trying to make Paul's words mean something other than that which is stated so clearly:

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for (epi) that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

    The Greek word translated "for" in this verse is epi.

    Recognized Greek expert John Henry Thayer says that the meaning of that word in the verse is: "On the ground of this,,,because that, because...Ro. v. 12" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    That is why we see the following translations:

    "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (NIV).

    "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (NASB).

    "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (RSV).

    The word "because" means "for the reason that; due to the fact of that" (The American College Dictionary).

    With these facts in view we can understand that "death passed to all men" and the reason for that is "all men sinned."

    Or using the second definition we can understand that "death passed to all men" due to the fact that "all men sinned."
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    That does not contradict what I said at all! Certainly it is "because" all men sinned - Aorist tense - completed action! Not FUTURE tense as your interpretation demands. Paul could have said because "all men shall sin" but he did not say that. No, "because" all men already sinned "by one man's offence" BECAUSE all men sinned when Adam sinned "because" all humanity consisted in and acted when Adam sinned. Thus, SPIRITUAL death passed unto all men BECAUSE all men had onced sinned when Adam sinned.

    This is not a matter of imputation but a matter of UNION of human nature acting in one man.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Certainly an Augustinian notion but unfounded in Scripture and certainly foreign to the ECF. If the ECF were united on one issue, it was the free will of man. Such a notion as you suggest Biblicist, destroys that notion. It destroys all just accountability for ones sins. It violates the clear teaching of Scripture that God does not and will not hold any man accountable for the sins of another. Such a notion destroys the justice of the law. Your theory suggests that the law is impossible to keep, yet man is still under its just penalty. It makes a mockery of the Justice of God for all that perish, in condemning men for something even God cannot do, i.e., escape necessitated fate. Such a notion as you suggest turns grace into mere justice. If God is going to punish man for an unavoidable fate, it is justice, not grace that would offer such a victim of such circumstances a way of escape.

    No Biblicist, it is just as Scripture states and the ECF taught. All are sinners for "all have sinned." The 'federal headship theory' is just that, a man made theory following after the error of Augustine, believing that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh and not in the will of man.
     
  15. th1bill

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    Jerry S,
    hell-o brother! Biblicist and Iconoclast are thorns in the sides of the Followers of Christ. You, obviously, are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and are not only Saved but are also a member of the Bride of Christ. Not being God, in either one of the three persons of the Holy Trinity, I am not given to know their salvic state but I do know and have tried to have them do a spiritual inventory to no avail.

    I began my grounding during my second year of following Jesus by teaching the class that our LORD called me to, the Primarys Class. At the age of forty-five I had to learn the bare basics to teach those 6,7 and 8 year olds. Within five years I was teaching the Men´s Sunday School Class how important the Basics were to our lives.

    You have done well in your teaching here, see you when we get home.
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Sorry to confuse you with scripture:laugh::laugh:
    not quite sure what you are getting at???

    What are you talking about??? This is almost incohehrent.....explain yourself.
     
    #16 Iconoclast, Jan 11, 2012
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  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    read and learn
     
    #17 Iconoclast, Jan 11, 2012
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  18. Iconoclast

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    here is what the scriptures teach;


    nice and short like you asked for
     
  19. convicted1

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    Bro. Jerry, in the FWIW caregory, I think you're doing a fine job. Keep up the good work.......:jesus::godisgood::thumbsup::thumbs:
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    How can "all in Adam die" if "all" are not "in Adam"??? (1 Cor. 15:22)

    As Ionoclast rightly states the Aorist tense "sinned" points to an event - a completed action.

    Jerry's position, and I assume your position calls for the future tense "all shall sin"!

    Moreover, the repeated phrase "by one man's offence many" demonstrates this was a completed event by one man that was inclusive of "many".

    furthermore, "death passed" in verse 12 refers to the predecing phrase "and death by sin" referring to "one man's offence" and thus SPIRITUAL DEATH because that "one man's offence" did not bring PHYSICAL death upon that sin but only SPIRITUAL Death.

    In addition, "by one man's offence MANY BE DEAD"! Your position requires Paul to use the future tense "many SHALL be dead"! Again, an historical event inclusive of "many" and SPIRITUAL DEATH as that is what occurred immediately "by one man's offence" or in the day he ate.

    When you err on this point, you err on many other Biblical points including the nature of salvation. The Apostle Paul could have used the FUTURE tense if your position was on his mind as he knows the difference between the Aorist and future tense. You must EXPLAIN AWAY his language to defend your errors.
     

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