C.H.S.'s View Of An R.C. Church

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Rippon, Dec 14, 2007.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Since there are a lot of topics on the BB now regarding Roman Catholics , I thought I would quote Charles Spurgeon on the matter . This is from his "Full Harvest " autobiography : Volume 2 .

    In Brussels , I heard a good sermon in a Romish church . The place was crowded with people , many of them standing , though they might have had a seat for a halfpenny or a farthing ; and I stood , too ; and the good priest -- for I believe he is a good man -- preached the Lord Jesus with all his might . He spoke of the love of Christ , so that I , a very poor hand at the French language , could fully understand him , and my heart kept beating within me as he told of the love of Christ and the preciousness of his blood , and of His power to save the chief of sinners . He did not say , 'justification by faith,' but he did say, 'efficacy of the blood,' which comes to very much the same thing . He did not tell us we are saved by His grace , and not by our works ; but he did say that all the works of men were less than nothing when brought into competition with the blood of Christ , and that the blood of Jesus alone could save . True , there were objectionable sentences , as naturally there must be in a discourse delivered under such circumstances ; but I could have gone to the preacher , and have said to him , 'Brother , you have spoken the truth;' and if I had been handling his text , I must have treated it the same way that he did , if I could have done it as well . I was pleased to find my own opinion verified , in his case , that there are , even in the apostate church , some who cleave unto the Lord -- some sparks of heavenly fire that flicker amidst the rubbish of old superstition , some lights that are not blown out , even by the strong wind of Popery , but still cast a feeble gleam across the waters sufficient to guide the soul to the rock Christ Jesus . I saw , in that church , a box for contributions for the Pope ; he will never grow rich with what I put into it ... if you were to discover how the money gets to the poor , you would find how it reaches the saints .
     
  2. J.D.

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    Sometimes we forget, and some dont even know, that the roman church's position on the Bible is far more conservative than that of a liberal protestant church. As long as there's a Bible around, some truth is getting out.
     
  3. Jillian

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    Sure there are some Catholics who see some truth including priests in the trenches {Those types dont get the promotions} But that is IN SPITE of Rome's false teachings. I meet Catholics today who hold more Protestant beliefs because they may watch Charles Stanley or visit a Christian bookstore for more time then they spend at a Mass. The freedom of information in America is one blessing the American Catholic has to garnish some deposits of truth.

    The Catholic people with rare exceptions are VICTIMS of a religious delusion and lie. Those who love Catholics want them to know the truth, instead of adding to Papal power bowing before it.

    I found it interesting you chose the most positive paragraph in the entire book...

    and left one out like THIS:

    {I think Spurgeon would be vouching me and not for the pro-Romanists on this board}

    "Essence of lies, and quintessence of blasphemy, as the religion of Rome IS... it nevertheless fascinates a certain order of Protestants, of whom we fear it may be truly said that 'they have received a strong delusion to believe a lie, that they may be damned.' Seeing that it is so, it becomes all who would preserve their fellow-immortals from destruction to be plain and earnest in their warnings. Not in a party-spirit, but for truth's sake, our Protestantism must protest perpetually. Dignitaries of the papal confederacy are just now very prominent in benevolent movements, and we may be sure that they have ends to serve other than those which strike the public eye. A priest lives only for his church; he may profess to have other objects, but this is a mere blind. Our ancient enemies have small belief in our common sense if they imagine that we shall ever be able to trust them, after having so often beheld the depths of Jesuitical cunning and duplicity. The sooner we let certain Archbishops and Cardinals know that we are aware of their designs, and will in nothing co-operate with them, the better for us and our country. Of course, we shall be howled at as bigots, but we can afford to smile at that cry, when it comes from the church which invented the Inquisition. 'No peace with Rome' is the motto of reason as well as of religion." [C. H. Spurgeon, January 1873]

    Wow "howled as as bigots"

    Im sure Spurgeon faced that then, as James White does today.


     
  4. Eliyahu

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    Charles Spurgeon changed his stance on the doctrinal issues from time to time as he stopped smoking when the cigarette companies advertized " Let's smoke cigarettes Spurgeon does".

    He retreated from Limited Atonement of the Predestination when he encountered the contradiction between Calvinism and the Bible.

    He called the Popery as Anti-Christ as here:

    It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the description."
    [FONT=바탕]"Popery is contrary to Christ’s Gospel, and is the Antichrist, and we ought to pray against it[/FONT]

    [FONT=&#48148]http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=antichrist_24[/FONT]


    [FONT=&#48148]Has he ever commented on the doctrinnes of RCC in detail? If not, why should we rely on his view? [/FONT]

    [FONT=&#48148]What was the view of Spurgeon on these Roman Catholicism?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&#48148]- Salvation by Grace + Works
    - Salvation by baptism ( Baptismal Regeneration)
    - Infant Baptism ( Unbelievers Baptism bringing the unbelievers into the church)
    - Baptism by sprinkling ( Pagan holy water dropped on the forehead) which doesn’t teach the burial of old person and resurrection with Jesus Christ.
    - Idol making for Mary or Joseph or Jesus
    - Idol worshipping for those statues
    - Immaculate Conception of Mary
    - Perpetual Virginity of Mary
    - Assumption : Ascension of Mary
    - Theotokos : calling Mary Mother of God, meaning God the Son of Mary.
    - Mary as Mother of Church
    - Queen of Heaven
    - Clergy system with hierarchy
    - Compulsory Celibacy
    - Confession to the Priests
    - Papacy
    - Papal infallibility
    - Whorish Tradition of so-called holy tradition
    - No Salvation outside Roman Catholic Church
    - Purgatory
    - Limbo
    - Mass which is ever asking forgiveness of the sins without bringing the Gospel that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross.
    - Transubstantiation ( Magic performance by Catholic Priests)
    - Extreme Unction after death
    - Prayer to the Dead
    - Prayer thru the Dead
    -Prayer for the Dead
    - Prayer to Mary
    -Pray with Rosario
    - all the signs of pagan origin such as ankh cross, mark of IHS, threefold hats for the pope, etc.
    - Chemarim costumes ( Black costumes used for Idol worshipping priests)
    - Crusade
    - Inquisition
    - Indulgence
    - Proxy wars
    [/FONT]


    [FONT=&#48148]We have much better criteria than Spurgeon, the infallible Bible.[/FONT]
     
    #4 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2007
  5. Rippon

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  6. Melanie

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    The question upper most in my mind is "Who is Charles Spurgeon....I have seen his name bandied about but just who is he?:type:"....oh dear he is in the same breath as Ian Paisley....a sweet generous Christian if there ever was one.....
     
  7. Eliyahu

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    #7 Eliyahu, Dec 15, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2007
  8. Eliyahu

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    Rippon, Complete Sense-Man !

    Is this " all men" only the Elect?

    Does not the text mean that it is the wish of God that all men should be saved? The word "wish" gives as much force to the original as it really requires, and the passage should run thus—"whose wish it is that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." As it is my wish that it should be so, as it is your wish that it might be so, so it is God's wish that all men should be saved;

    http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm


    Didn't Spurgeon believe in the Predestination or Calvinism ( so-called moderate Calvinism)?

    http://www.founders.org/FJ24/article1.html

    You can hardly find the problem with Predestination when you claim that the Believers were predestined eternity before the creation that they believe in Jesus and thereby go to the Heaven. But if we turn to the Unbelievers, there are huge problems, because of the ignorance about the Mercy and Love of God toward ALL Men in the world.
     
    #8 Eliyahu, Dec 15, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2007
  9. Eliyahu

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    What did Spurgeon say about Calvinism ?


    "The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

    http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
     
    #9 Eliyahu, Dec 15, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2007
  10. Eliyahu

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    Spurgeon:

    He stands on the Total Depravity

    I am bound to the doctrine of the depravity of the human heart, because I find myself depraved in heart, and have daily proofs that in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing.

    http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

    Depraved not to believe what Jesus has already done ?


    Some persons love the doctrine of universal atonement because they say, "It is so beautiful. It is a lovely idea that Christ should have died for all men; it commends itself," they say, "to the instincts of humanity; there is something in it full of joy and beauty." I admit there is, but beauty may be often associated with falsehood. There is much which I might admire in the theory of universal redemption, but I will just show what the supposition necessarily involves. If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of Divine justice.That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!

    http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

    (Spurgeon objected to Universal Atonement and claimed the LImited Atonement here)

    What did Jesus say on the Cross? Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing !

    Did Jesus say this in vain ? Didn't Jesus ask God to forgive those who were killing Himself ( the un-elected)?



    He criticize the Arminius/Arminians very much without knowing very much about the Bible Truth !

    If we know that God has some restrictions in His working due to the other attributes of His, he would have had to adjust his stance quickly. This is why he said " it is my wish, your wish, and God's wish that all men should be saved" - This contradicts Limited Atonement !


    Was it the God's wish that all men should be saved, while He predestined billions of people to go to the Hell eternity before their birth?

    When they said, "I was saved by the grace of God, my salvation was predestined eternity before my birth, absolutely by the Grace of God, etc." It sounds good and no problem. Then how many percent of people are going to the Heaven? Truly born again believers may be 1 % ( Let's say so). Then 99% go to the Hell. 1% was predesitined by the grace of God. Then 99% were deserted by the reprobation of God. Billions were predestined to be punished by God, to go to the Hell, though if God willed He could have saved them.

    Main problem with Calvinism is that they are missing the fact that God can be still sovereign while He allows the men the free will to choose between Belief and Unbelief, without knowing that God doesn't coerce the faith unto the faith though He persuades the human race to believe and obey.

    If the god of Calvinism is causing all things of human minds and hearts to believe or disbelieve any things, then He is responsible for all the evils and crimes of the world. If He decreed and predestined the billions of people not to believe in God, causing the thoughts of their mind to disobey God, then send them to the Hell, then that god must be responsible for all the sins of the world, and should go to the Hell.

    The god described by Calvinism, Predestination must go to the Hell.


    I can have much more for this issue, but don't want to hijack the thread to the unintended direction. The most powerful Apology on this part of Systematic Theology is well handled by Dave Hunt in his book " What Love is This"
     
    #10 Eliyahu, Dec 16, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2007
  11. FriendofSpurgeon

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    BG -- No, I would never put the two in the sentence.

    Spurgeon was a British Baptist Pastor who lived in the 1800's and is known as one of best Baptist preachers in history. He was also very reformed in doctrine, and wrote a sermon on "In Defense of Calvinism."

    You can find a lot on him at www.spurgeon.org.

    God's best to you down in Australia, FOS
     
  12. Eliyahu

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    Certainly, Charles H Spurgeon was a great man of God and a good preacher of the Gospels.

    However, would he have been still such a great man of God if he claimed the followings?

    It is neither my wish, nor your wish, nor God's wish that ALL men should be saved( Universal Atonement), but that only the Elect, chosen by God and predestined by God from Eternity before their birth should be saved ( Limited Atonement).

    What made Spurgeon so great was not the pure Calvinism, but his obedience to the Grace of God toward All men, toward the world as God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    If anyone read the arguments by Spurgeon in defense of Calvinism, you can hardly find his reference to the Bible, almost no quotation of the Bible for the Calvinism except those Romans 8,9, Exodus 4, and some others.

    However, if you read "What Love is This " by Dave Hunt, you can find the excellent refutation by quoting the thousands, thousands of Bible verses.

    The strongholds for the Predestination are the Romans 8, 9, Exodus 4, but they are also well refuted by the excellent exergies of those verses, by Dave Hunt.

    This thread is not about CHS's Calvinism but his stance about the RCC. I already showed CHS called Popery the Anti-Christ, which I believe is good enough.
     
    #12 Eliyahu, Dec 17, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2007
  13. Frogman

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    Where does Spurgeon affirm that he believed double predestination?

    bro. Dallas:wavey:

     
  14. Eliyahu

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  15. Frogman

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    Dear Eliyahu,

    I guess your post above is a response to me.

    Here are a couple more links:

    http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

    and

    http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/gfw.htm#strength

    The former is Spurgeon's classic defense of calvinism.

    The latter is said to be his last published work and his most powerfully delivered lecture to his pastor's college students. In the first he defends Calvinism, in the latter he declares even the child of God (assuming such men as spurgeon who stand behind the pulpit) are children of God, still receive nothing except they receive it from above.

    an excerpt from the latter:

    bro. Dallas:wavey:



    http://www.spurgeon.org/spsrmns.htm

    :wavey:
     
  16. Eliyahu

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    Sorry, my post was not the response to yours. I just realized that I didn't provide any tool for the book in the previous post which I mentioned about "What Love is This"

    Basically, I do not intend to spend much time for reading many books other then the Bible, but sometimes some books helps me to understand the Bible better from various angles.

    However, your post may be useful for my information, though I already mentioned those sites in my previous posts.
     
  17. Frogman

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    #17 Frogman, Dec 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2007
  18. billwald

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    No one who smoked cigars can be all wrong. <G>
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Spurgeon --

    A good example of a Calvinist preacher.

    A good example of someone who did not back away from identifying the flaws in the RCC's Dark Ages for mankind.
     
  20. Eliyahu

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    It is a pity that he regarded the believing as the works.

    Such person do not know how to distinguish between Rejection of the Holy Spirit and all the other sins.

    He showed the great abhorrence to the Plymouth Brethren.
     

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