C.S. Lewis: "If nothing remains...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    ... [of Christian explanations and interpretations] except what could be equally well stated without Christian formulae, then the honest thing to do is to admit that Christianity [or Calvinism] is untrue and to begin all over again without it." * (my words in brackets)

    Ergo --- if salvation is by monergistic election and there is nothing we can do to attain it (i.e. if election is unconditional), then there is truly no purpose for your notion of Christianity. Face it. The elect will be saved whoever they are -- Bhuddists, Hindus, atheists, etc. -- it matters NOT what God finds in them -- in "anything forseen in man." (Quote: Westminister Confession)

    The seemingly foundational sotierolgy of Calvinism is that God chooses whomsoever He will, period! Such a Christianity is merely one possible explanation of God and eternal life.

    Now -- if one must believe before one is saved/elect -- there you've got a Christianity that requires a Christ and the whole Bible story.

    skypair

    *from his essay "Horrid Red Things"
     
    #1 skypair, Mar 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2007
  2. johnp.

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    If one gets their doctrine off CS Lewis then what can one say?

    Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

    What's the purpose of anything skypair?

    And I was among the atheists so what, who were you among?

    RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

    RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

    john.
     
  3. Andy T.

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    ................... :sleep: .........................
     
  4. skypair

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    You're right, Andy. This was for those who are awake and listening for the truth. Don't let it disturb YOU :D

    skypair
     
  5. skypair

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    I see you start right off measuring the man and not his ideas. Do you fathom that anyone but you knows the truth?

    Well, the purpose of the Bible is to reconcile "whosoever will" to God. But why is there any revelation of God at all if He elects monergistically? Is the Bible just God "thumbing His nose at" those who aren't elect?

    skypair
     
  6. donnA

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    Do you think God can not or will not save buddhists, Hindus, atheists, etc?
    God chooses to saves through the gospel, He chose payment for sin to be Jesus death. How can you it wasn't needed if a person is a Calvinist? That ridiculous. And as I see from this thread, getting worse all the time. You not only have to twist scripture, you have to add words to others quotes to get it to say what you want it too. This is pitiful and getting worse.
    The whole bible? I've seen others present you with scripture on other threads you could not or would not answer questions about, how do you make them all harmonize. But that was other threads, you passed on that.
     
  7. skypair

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    The point is that under election, there is NO necessity to convert to Christianity, donnA. If Calvin's description of election without conditions is accepted, why do we not look for "elect/saved Bhuddists" deeply dedicated, being sanctified to God, in their own religion?

    Calvinism would -- to follow this line of reasoning -- be just one explanation for who is "elect"/saved.

    I know what I am saying sounds objectionable to you. Yes, He DOES save through the gospel THOSE WHO BELIEVE! Salvation is, thus, CONDITIONAL, not unconditional. Election is NOT arbitrary! It is no mere coicidence that all the "elect" end up in Christian churches! God doesn't make those who don't believe believe and so the doctrine of unconditional election must at last be "untrue and [we must] begin all over again without it!"

    I know I'm not the best communicator. I do try to highlight the main thrust of what I see and believe are the author's intents. In the article "Horrid Red Things," I believe Lewis was trying to "gig" the liberals who expalin everything "miraculous" in the Bible as having "natural" explanations. And yet his point applies to Calvinism IMO.

    "Unconditional Election" is merely a "natural" explanation much as a coach picking the players for his first year T-ball team. He knows NOTHING about them -- he just chooses whom he will -- he "loves" them becaue he chose them -- he teaches them to play -- they are his team -- the ones in the other dugout aren't -- NATURAL, right! Where does -- where could, the miraculous come into that explanation?

    Perhaps God does just pick and teach arbitrarily or randomly. Do you believe that? If so, what is the function of the gospel?

    skypair
     
    #7 skypair, Mar 27, 2007
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  8. Andy T.

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    No, I've become tired of your continued mischaracterizations of other people's beliefs. People who are apparently your brothers/sisters in Christ, but your continued mischaracterizations signify that you think otherwise. It is either that, or you aren't loving the brethern with your continued lies about their beliefs. Which is it?
     
  9. johnp.

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    skypair.

    His ideas are of hobgoblins, witches and Santa isn't it? I measure him so.

    I was under the impression that was what Jesus was about. The bible is written for His People not for the reprobate.

    For the comfort of His Beloved. The revelation is a revelation for His chosen and Royal Priesthood.

    He will be doing more than thumbing His Nose. Luke 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

    john.
     
  10. Helen

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    johnp, I think you do not know much about C.S. Lewis, if that is how you characterize him. There was a lot more to him, and his writings, than the children's stories he wrote to explain a little about Christ to them. You might be interested in some of his essays, which can be found in "The Weight of Glory," "The Problem of Pain," "The Abolition of Man," and other collections of his works. I think you might be surprised.

    The purpose of the Bible is to explain to us how we got the way we are and what God has done and is doing about it. As such, the Bible is for everyone alive. "For God so loved the WORLD...." All of us.

    I also think you will find that Peter, as an Apostle to the Jews, is not referring to Gentile believers when he talks about a royal priesthood. For Gentile believers do not fit the description of 'a holy nation' (1 Peter 3:9). His Holy people, His inheritance, His nation -- that is Israel and the Jews. We are the Bride of Christ, which is different. Remember John the Baptist's response in John 3 when he refers to Christ as the Bridegroom and himself as the friend of the Groom? There is a distinction made throughout the Bible separating God's people, the Jews, from the rest of us. Jews who believe are part of His royal priesthood. We, who are Gentile believers, are part of the Bride.

    edit: my husband mentioned also that if you go through Ezekiel and other books, you will find that it is the Jews who are involved in the priestly functions during the Millennial Reign of Christ.
     
  11. johnp.

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    Or you have a different opinion Helen. :)

    There is always a lot more to a man that rewrites the bible so children can understand it. :)

    It is not for all of us. MT 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

    You contradict Jesus.

    1PE 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone--
    1PE 2:7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
    "The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone, "
    1PE 2:8 and,
    "A stone that causes men to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall."
    They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
    1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    john.
     
  12. donnA

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    After watching you for several threads on this topic, I have come to the conclusion that you don't really care what others believe, you twist and misrepresent till it is no longer recognizable. Why would you want to lie about other peoples beliefs? Unless of course, as has already been pointed out to you, you do not consider then brothers in Christ. Becasue twisteing others believes, purposesly over and over, without trying to understand what they believe(without changing your own beliefs of course) is not loving the brethren.
     
  13. DQuixote

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    Thanks, Helen. Can't argue with that.
     
  14. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    So why not just treat him as a troll and ignore him?
     
  15. johnp.

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    It is not for all of us.

    MT 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

    You contradict Jesus DQuixote.

    PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

    Please reply with scripture.

    john.
     
  16. Deacon

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    I can't seem to find the quote in the chapter.
    Can you give a larger quote?

    The chapter, 'Horrid Red Things' is chapter 10 of "Miracles".

    I certainly has NOTHING to do with Calvinism!

    "All the essentials of Hinduism would, I think, remain unimpaired if you subtracted the miraculous, and the same is almost true of Mohammedanism.
    But you cannot do that with Christianity.
    It is precisely the story of a great Miracle.
    A naturalistic Christianity leaves out all that is specifically Christian."
    'Horrid Red Things' in the book Miracles by C.S. Lewis

    Rob
     
    #16 Deacon, Mar 27, 2007
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  17. psalms109:31

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    scripture


    Luke 10:21
    At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
     
  18. johnp.

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    LK 10:22 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."


    john.
     
  19. Benjamin

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    [​IMG] BoyOBoy!?! That is a dispensational mouthful! :laugh: I might have to save this for another tread or 2 on a rainy day. Love ya Helen...but...just don't want you to be surprised if I return to this later when I got more time.

    So many C vs A treads nowadays it actually seems inviting or refreshing to take some jabs at the dispies. :laugh: :wavey:
     
  20. Benjamin

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    Happy birthday Johnp!
     

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