cain's wife...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by robycop3, Aug 6, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    I have had a rather heated argument with some fellow Fundies (from another church, not mine) over the origin of Cain's wife. (and the spouses of Noah's grandkids) They say Cain married a sister, an idea I totally reject, given GOD'S hatred of incest, calling it an abomination. (Incest is a natural taboo among peoples who've never hearda God, which is more proof of how abominable it is to Him!)

    GOD is NOT wishy-washy in what is sinful or abominable to Him. I don't believe He EVER condoned something He now hates so much!

    I argue that the BEST explanation is that GOD created more people after A&E. They argue that Scripture sez we are ALL descended from A&E. I agree, of course, but I remind them that we are each descended from ONE man and ONE woman, whom in turn are each themselves descended from ONE man and ONE woman; thus we each have FOUR grandparents, etc. etc. back thru successive generations. For example, though my surname is Roby, there are umpteen other surnames in my ancestry, but I am descended from ONE original Roby and his wife somewhere sometime. So, while A&E were the first homo sapiens created by GOD, why could He not have later created other people to be spouses for the second generation, that is, the children of A&E? Their children would still be descendants of A&E. Same goes for Noah's grandkids, excluding Nimrod who wed his own mother Semiramis.

    I TOTALLY reject the "incest" explanation, based upon GOD'S hatred of it, and the fact that there are five distinct races of people today, all just-as-human as the other, all just-as-eligible for salvation, but each different in appearance and physical characteristics.

    I am open to any other explanation that doesn't involve incest.
     
  2. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,149
    Likes Received:
    365
    God did not teach against incest until the law. Before that, it was common for there to be marriage amongst siblings/cousins. Remember, Abraham and Sarah were half siblings.
     
  3. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ann is correct. You also seem to forget that they were sinners and that alone would bring them into such relations.
     
  4. HAMel

    HAMel
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,048
    Likes Received:
    83
    How much time lapsed between Cain and his wife? I'm quite sure it could have been a couple of generations.
     
  5. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,607
    Likes Received:
    44
    Wow:eek:

    Would your imagined post-Flood-newly-created-human-spouses-for-each-of-Noah's grandchildren-so-the-grandchildren-wouldn't-mate-with-each-other-since-that's-icky — would these new people have had a sin nature, since they were not descended from Adam?
     
  6. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76
    Here's an idea. If you can't believe Cain married his sister, stop calling yourself a "Fundy". The Fundies got it right. You got it wrong.
     
  7. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    114
    Here my opinion - take it or leave it. Cain had only two options for a wife. A sister or a niece. The Bible doesn't leave room for anything else.

    Does God hate incest? Yes. Then why wasn't this a sin? Why wasn't Abraham marrying his half-sister a sin? Because these marriages took place LONG before the law.

    Well, wasn't Cain murdering his brother a sin before the law? Yes. And wasn't Rueben having sex with his father's concubine a sin before the law and wasn't Abraham lying to the King about his marital status a sin before the law and wasn't is a sin for Laban to cheat Jacob before the law? Yes and yes and yes.

    What's the difference then?

    The sins of murder, adultery, lying, stealing, and others like that have always been "sins" or behaviors defy the holy nature of God. God cannot lie, steal, murder, cheat, or leave us as a people to go and love someone else.

    Because we are made in the image of God, we are not allowed to participate in behaviors that would defy his holy nature - a holy nature that we are made in the image of. We are charged to be holy as He is holy.

    That's why murdering, lying, cheating, and those things made God angry and He punished people for committing those acts thousands of years before there ever was a law.

    So what about incest? WHY does God despise incest? I think for one reason that our DNA has mutated so and we carry so many recessive traits and many of those are negative. People carry genetic mutations for a host of things - Huntington's disease, Sickle-cell anemia, and more.

    We know if two blood relatives such as brother and sister marry and have a child, then the odds are if they both carry the trait for something negative then their child stands a much greater chance of bearing that problem. Some mutations are socially acceptable such as blonde hair and green eyes.

    So, and this is just my opinion, people like Cain and his brothers and sisters and nephews and neices had almost perfect DNA. Intermarrying would not have been problem in terms of genetics. But a few thousand years later - when the law came - humanity's DNA, having copied itself over and over millions of times - began to make imperfect copies of itself. Why? Because God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they would die. That's the consequence of sin in this world - death. And so with entropy and the laws of physics being what it is - everything, including our DNA is in state of increasing inefficacy. And God - being protective like He is - banned the intermarriage of close blood relatives. I'm glad He loves us like that.

    Of course, the law was for the nation of Israel only, yet some of the law makes overwhelmingly common sense and should still be applicable. And some of the law is still bearing the holy nature of God and should be considered applicable.

    This is just my opinion.
     
    #7 Scarlett O., Aug 7, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2011
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    There's one other option, his mother. :eek:


    But I agree with you. Good post. :wavey:
     
  9. Baptist4life

    Baptist4life
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    I gotta say, what you posted, and apparently believe, is the weirdest thing I've ever heard!
     
  10. Arbo

    Arbo
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    3,942
    Likes Received:
    1
    If it cannot be found in Scripture, you are adding to it; those who do so are addressed in Proverbs 30:5-6.
     
  11. beameup

    beameup
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    2
    When in Egypt, Abraham said that Sarah was his sister. He was not lying.
     
  12. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    114
    He withheld the fact that she was his wife. Twice. To two different kings. Each time, the half-truth led those kings to believe that she was "single and available". One king even put Sarah in his harem and was planning on her being his sex partner - but God stopped him.

    Twice, the "half-truth" that Abraham told put his wife in moral peril. She would not have been allowed to tell these men no. In my book, a half-truth is a whole lie. Abraham's intent was to deceive men so that they would not kill him.

    Abraham told Sarah before they ever even left Ur that to tell everyone that she was his sister. Apparently, he didn't trust that God would take care of them - he relied on own mistruths.


     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    GOD HATES INCEST! He hates it so much that those those who practice it often have children with many serious birth defects. We see this among the Pakistanis where cousin marriages are very common, as well as father-daughter marriages, if the daughter's mother is the father's slave.

    Incest is a strong "taboo" among peoples who've never hearda God. And even most animals don't practice it.

    Unlike many men, GOD DOES NOT CHANGE! It's plain that He hates incest INTENSELY! I don't believe He approved of incest any more than He ever approved of IDOL WORSHIP.

    Now, Sarah was Abe's HALF-sister. God DID later prohibit such marriages. But I don't believe He EVER approved of relationships between direct biological relatives such as parent-child or full brother-sister. We see Nimrod wed his own mother Semiramis, and they became the founders of most of the pagan religions on earth, which came from their "mystery, babylon" religion. Their incest was just one of many evils they did.

    Lot's daughters sinned greatly by getting their dad drunk so they could "sleep" with him.(And lot sinned, too, by getting drunk!) Their children, Moab and Ammon, founded peoples which became the enemies of Israel. They also became EXTINCT. Met any Moabites or Ammonites lately? You meet an Israeli every time U meet a Jew.

    Scripture is silent on the answers to those questions, so we can only speculate. But it's much more-likely that He created other people to serve as spouses for A&E's children than it is that He allowed them to interbreed!

    I am open to any other explanation that does NOT involve incest!
     
    #13 robycop3, Aug 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2011
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are no other options. You cannot create a new doctrine (extra people created) from silence. The bible is clear that Eve is the mother of ALL the living. There were no other Eves.
     
  15. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then you are not open to the truth and you are adding to the bible, and no there is no possibility that God created other people if you understand your bible. You seem to have an overly concern for this issue as well as a very confused one. While I am not suggesting that incest should be practiced the scriptures never deals with it as strong or in the way as you seem to want to make it. In fact in the creation of only two people there was absolutely no possible alternative for their children. Also if someone wanted to press the point to extremes Adam married part of himself. Not only that any marriage is marrying some relative even today as there was only two people in the creation and we all came from them.

    God did not forbid incest in the beginning perhaps because the early years after creation the genic pool remained somewhat pure. The first understanding that incest was wrong was not until the law of Moses so anyone who did that prior was not in sin. Where there is no law there is no sin attributed to the person.
    Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.
    Cane had to marry either a sister, niece or the child of a niece and nephew or some combination like that as there was no one else to marry.
    As to specualtion yes we can, but it has to be within the parameters of what we have in the bible and it is not possible that God created someone after Adam.
     
    #15 freeatlast, Aug 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2011
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    you'll have to look elsewhere, then, roby, cause you mightn't find it here.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Genesis 4:1-3 :

    1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived , and bare Cain, and said , I have gotten a man from the LORD.
    2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
    3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

    "in process of time" (v3) might be the key to your issue, robycop. In process of time could be "and time passed". that is, the people grew, matured, propagated. sexual maturity, childbearing, etc., etc.

    This "process of time" also involves the health and quickness upon which the early humans reached sexual maturity. How old (or young) before it was considered proper to marry ? So, Cain's wife might be a few notches removed down.
    Like, my daughter bears a daughter, and that granddaughter of mine, does not bear my family name, it's just a middle initial to her, and if her daughter marries, well, then, my family name, disappears, and that daughter is now what, twice removed from me ? and if she has a daughter, then that great-great granddaughter of mine is thrice removed from me, and somewhere along the branches and limbs in-between somebody from the same family tree could marry somebody from the same family tree and so on, you understand what I'm getting at ?
    But, in the case of Adam and Eve, well, there's gotta be incest at some point, maybe in the early years.
     
  18. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,878
    Likes Received:
    109
    One way to look at it is that God had a reason to make only one male and one female “that all nations might know themselves to made of one blood, descendants, from one common stock, and might thereby be induced to love one another.” After all, in my opinion God’s greatest attribute is love and purpose for creation is about love.


    [​IMG] Another way to look at it is that “man” and/or “Adam” could/might could be taken in some cases as plural (some linguistics scholars say as much) and/or seen similar to as a type of gap theory.


    :laugh:
     
    #18 Benjamin, Aug 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2011
  19. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,607
    Likes Received:
    44
    I'm not sure what exactly you are suggesting with this line of thought, and I'm not sure that I want to know:eek:
     
    #19 Jerome, Aug 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2011
  20. beameup

    beameup
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    2
    I believe that there was almost no genetic mutation up until that time and people lived much longer as a result.
    During those times, marrying "within the extended family" was acceptable and provided additional stability.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...