cal and non-cal agreement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    I would like the forum folks to explore areas of agreement between the two systems of theological views that consume the better part of many discussions on the forum.

    For instance: In the thread (now closed) on Hunt/White, I posted in brief how if removing the "extremes" of the views, there is a certain level of agreement.

    Of course, there were two that didn't agree, but I consider that it may be helpful to pursue where we might all agree, and (if only in attempting) come up with some common ground.

    Here is the typical "TULIP" for a reference start along with what I consider a common ground on which BOTH views might find agreeable.

    Depravity - Both views hold that humankind are depraved and incapable of even having any desire of salvation outside the purposed and direct work of God. Is it not the degree of that depravity that is really argued about?

    Election - Both views hold that humankind are elected to salvation. Both views also hold that the election is not based upon any speciality or station of the one to be saved, but by the total mercy and grace of God. Neither side holds that God is ever surprised when one is converted, and that some are (to be) saved while others may actually continue their whole life mocking and spurning.

    Atonement - Both views hold that Christ is the ONLY way to the Father. Both views have some limit to atonement to only the saved (or there would be no need for eternal death and hell). Both also agree that the death of Christ is sufficient to all who who have, are and will be saved. Again, is it not the degree of the "all" that is contended over and not the limit of atonement?

    Grace - Both views hold that God extends mercy and grace to one who will be saved. That outside of that direct and purposed work, the individual cannot even self determine to come to Christ for Scriptures are clear that no man seeks or even cares outside of this grace of God. Is it not the degree of just how "resistible" or not the work of God is in the individual who will be saved?

    Perseverance/preservation of the saints is a none issue on the BB. We all hold to once saved always saved, although the extremes of the Arm. view do not.

    Folks, I understand the elementary (basic, simple) form of the TULIP that I have posted.

    However, for this discussion, I would like for it to be on unity and agreement, not of areas of disagreement.

    In doing so, remember that in presenting your view, it would be considerate to express how you might have agreement (up to a point) with a view you generally argue against.
     
  2. quantumfaith

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  3. JohnDeereFan

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    Actually, the Finney-ites don't believe that. They believe that man just needs to be persuaded to "accept Jesus into his heart".

    Finney-ites don't believe this. They believe that all men have an equal calling to salvation and that a God who would elect some to salvation is a capricious God.

    Finney-ites cannot believe in the Biblical doctrine of eternal security. If a man chooses to come to Christ, then he can choose to leave Christ.
     
  4. jbh28

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    Both agree with "we are right and you are wrong" We just disagree with who the "we" and "you" are.
     
  5. InTheLight

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    Both agree to misrepresent the other's position in order to show that their viewpoint is correct.
     
  6. JohnDeereFan

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    Imagine my surprise to find out from the Finney-ites that we don't believe in evangelism, when my church has a 70 member evangelism team that just spent a weekend in Dover sharing the Gospel with thousands at the NASCAR races.
     
  7. agedman

    agedman
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    Finney was trained as a lawyer, and a manipulator of courtroom drama.

    Having no doubt that many were saved by the preaching of the Word that he did, I do not have a lot of regard for the person.

    There are some who actually proclaim he did great damage, I really don't care. Just as Jesus stated when the apostles wanted Him to rebuke one who was preaching Christ "outside" of their group, Finney preached and souls were saved. I glorify God that His Word is effective no matter the vessel.

    The criticism I level at Finney stems from his own contentious attitude that was evident even before conversion and continued intemperate throughout his life. Perhaps it is that which obliged him to rather dangerous teachings that I have trouble aligning with Scriptures.

    I find it strange that Baptists did not hold his teaching accountable and actually demonstrate in the university and seminary coursework how doctrinally unsound he actually was, but rather some would actually emulate him and his frail work.

    AT LEAST he was doing the work of an evangelist, which is woefully neglected by the vast majority of believers.
     
  8. agedman

    agedman
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    That is true!!!!
     
  9. JohnDeereFan

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    That's pragmatism.
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    In the church I serve (as does saturneptune), the large majority of our members are not Calvinists. We DoGs are in a definite minority, yet, we get along just fine, focusing on areas of agreement where we can, and agreeing to disagree where we can't. So we have some experience in this area of seeking agreement.

    We all agree that all have sinned.
    We all agree that the Holy Spirit must initiate the process with illumination and conviction. It is the Holy Spirit who opens the eyes of the sinner to spiritual truth; convicts him of sin and its consequences; and draws him to repentance and faith.

    Whether one believes all are enabled, or only the elect, we all agree on illumination, conviction and drawing.

    We all agree that salvation involves repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    We all agree that God is able to keep those who have committed to him, and no one can snatch them out of his hand, that the gifts and calling of God are "without repentance."

    Even though we may approach the subject of election from different perspectives, these agreements are something we can all embrace as the basis for unity among us. Because, in the final analysis, we agree on the Gospel.
     
  11. agedman

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    Great post.

    Are there other areas of agreement.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    I am in full agreement with Cals on this.

    I agree fully with this.

    This is puzzling, I may be wrong but it looks like you are trying to separate the impossible here.

    Not sure I can go with how the question is worded.


    First, it is not true that if you are not a cal then you are an arm. Second not everyone on this board holds to perseverance of the saints, but that is my clear position.

    While I hold to total depravity, I also hold that God, by His sovereign design opens up the heart of man to make a choice to choose Him or not. (John 1:12-13) Man cannot make any choice outside of God's sovereign design. (Isaiah 64:6-7)

    I also hold that God does not give us the mechanics of salvation. God opens man's heart, some choose some do not. The details of that are not known.
     
  13. Herald

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    There are certainly areas of agreement between Calvinists and Arminians*. The deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the resurrection, substitutionary atonement, His imminent return et. al. But even in those areas of agreement both sides often view them through the larger prism of their theology. In other words, your theological paradigm influences all aspects of your belief system.

    *Baptists are not truly Calvinists in the sense that they do not believe in all aspects of Calvin's theology. Baptists are not truly Arminians in the sense that they do not believe in all aspects of Arminius' theology. I use the terms to describe the soteriological views most commonly debated.
     
  14. preacher4truth

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    It would be nice if there was the adherence to the things above by what you call both groups.

    On Depravity one group (a few on here) disagree with depravity as per your description and say that being lost they did desire God, were good, seeking Him, always loved God &c and deny Romans 3 indictment upon all mankind. They also deny other passages of themselves being hostile toward God, enemies in their mind, at enmity with God, under wrath like the rest of mankind. Somehow these Scriptures don't talk about them at all. Is it then a wonder they reject Depravity as you explain it and as Scripture explains it?

    On Election you'd be incorrect again. Several on here believe in election based upon themselves, what they've done &c, what they call conditional election, or God chose based upon _____________. They'll fight against election in general, or the true Biblical teaching of unconditional election they will attack vehemently but bring up their false flavor of conditional election and they love it and will reiterate their seeking God, good things done &c. Since they deny Romans 3 as per above it is is easy for them to believe the false notion of conditional election and not accept biblical unconditional election. There is also a huge disdain among these in the biblical aspect of God choosing. This is seen on BB in many instances, and proof to show that not all saved are elect is sought with taking Scriptures out of context to do so, mocking those who know they are elect &c.

    Those two huge erroneous views held by some on here are due cause for reproving their teachings and there can be no unity with these things being held. Furthermore, I've never met a true Baptist that believes the way these few do. Neither have any pastors, professors or evangelists that I've spoken to heard of a Baptist such as this.
     
  15. Thomas Helwys

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    Your characterizations are totally false and not even worth further comment. An honest conversation cannot be had with someone who either ignorantly or willfully misrepresents the facts of what someone believes.
     
  16. preacher4truth

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    You have no clue what you're talking about sir.

    These things have been stated on BB and are well known facts. And much of it recently.

    Open your eyes and know what you're talking about before you type nonsense.
     
  17. Thomas Helwys

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    Typing nonsense is your domain, and I'll gladly leave you to it.
     
  18. preacher4truth

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    You're clueless to what is held here then. What, you've been here 6 months and so you know all that has been said in the past, correct?

    Cornelius is used as an example to support their conditional election. So is the rich young ruler, who wasn't 'good' by the way. Both passages abused from their context to do so.

    Innumerous out of context references are quoted to disprove the 'all mankind' indictment of Romans 3 along with indictments in Eph., Col. &c. Many have ascribed themselves good prior to salvation, that they were seeking God, and are adamant against the fact that they were ever hostile toward God &c.

    A simple search of the archives would serve you well, but for you to be proven incorrect by self discovery would prevent you from being able to post things that you are completely oblivious about.

    You don't know what you are talking about.

    And that you don't believe it? I couldn't care less. I and many others know this is factual and has been purported by Baptists on this site.
     
  19. quantumfaith

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    :applause::applause::applause:

    He seems to always "disparage" others in light of his positions and theological biases. He finds it difficult, if not impossible, to simply disagree with someone's position.
     
  20. Revmitchell

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    Guys this thread is about what we agree on. Do not let him take it off of that track.
     

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