Cals: Is being given to Jesus the same as being drawn?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by humblethinker, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. humblethinker

    humblethinker
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    In relation to John 6, I'd like to get input from reformed thinkers regarding whether being given by the Father to Jesus is the same as being drawn by the Father.

    That is, in John 6, can you demonstrate that G = D? ('G' meaing 'given by the Father to Jesus' and 'D' meaning 'drawn by the Father')

    John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me
    John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
     
  2. Herald

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    Giving and drawing are, technically, two different things; although the result is the same outcome.

    In verse 37 the Father bequeaths to the Son the elect. In verse 44 the Father actually draws them.
     
  3. Greektim

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    I think it is unfortunate that this is the only place this Greek word is translated "draw." The reality is, the word "draw" is used to refer to pulling a sword out of its scabbard or to pull an arrow back in a bow. Thus, the action to "draw" means to be pulled or dragged. That is the consistent use throughout the Bible.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    I know you directed your question to Cals, but I'd like to comment from "the other perspective."

    Given the historical context there are a select few from Israel ('the Remnant') that the Father gave to Christ so that He could train them as the foundation for His church (i.e. apostles...see John 17).

    These apostles, their writings, and the church they establish are the means God has appointed to "draw all men" to himself after he is raised up (ref. John 12:32). Understanding this foundational aspect of the historical context of this and other passages is absolutely essential to correctly interpreting the intent of the authors.
     
  5. Skandelon

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    If one looks at the context of the entire passage it is clear that the term "draw" is used interchangeably with the word "enabled" in verse 65. One cannot come unless they have HEARD and these people (Israel) are "...ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" (Acts 28)

    The reason they could not believe is, as Jesus explains:

    For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." -John 12

    Calvinists make the error of taking the condition of Israel at this time and applying it to their view of the universal nature of all men from birth. This concept is not supported in the text.
     
  6. humblethinker

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    Regarding "although the result is the same outcome"... can you tell me what in John 6 indicates that all that are 'drawn' are all the same ones that are 'given to Jesus'?
     
  7. Frogman

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    In John 6:37-39 it is the will of the Father seen in giving all the elect to Christ, it is the performance of this will that Christ delighted in, that he will lose not one but will raise him up again at the last day.

    this is confirmed in Paul's teaching most prominently in Ephesians 1 where we see that the elect are chosen in Christ (an act of the will of one having power to choose) and are made accepted in the beloved (an act of the will of the chooser) and this is to the praise of the glory of His grace, the which will (Hebrews 10) is that which sanctifies all those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. They are sanctified through the will of God, they are redeemed through the offering of the body of Christ, they are quickened by the Holy Spirit, it is only after having received this quickening they then are able to 'hear and believe' the gospel. But, not all do hear and of all who do hear, not all believe, thus we have about 75 different Baptistic denominational groups in KY alone.

    If ALL the elect absolutely do hear and believe they would all hear and believe the same things. If there are differences in practice, this difference will be removed when we no longer 'know in part' but are made perfected in the Son as we see his face in righteousness, awaking in His likeness, then we shall each of his elect, be satisfied.

    Faith does not cause life, life enables faith, faith evidences life, as this Paul says faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    That which is 'hoped' for is 'Christ in you the hope of glory' This is true of each of the redeemed of God in Christ regardless of how much knowledge they possess of the truth.

    Otherwise, Timothy is told by Paul to take heed to himself in order to:

    1. Save himself
    2. Save his hearers

    This is not a salvation unto Eternal Life which Paul is speaking of, but a gospel salvation in hearing, believing, repenting and living by the truth.

    bro. Dallas
     
    #7 Frogman, Nov 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2011
  8. humblethinker

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    It seems to me that you would have to show from John 6 that being drawn to Jesus by the Father necessarily results in coming to/believing in Jesus, hence the drawing grace of God is irresistible. Outside of an a priori approach I haven't yet seen how this passage would teach such.

    Understanding that 'coming to' and 'believing in' are the same thing we can observe the following:

    For irresistible grace to be taught in John 6, it must show:
    This set of people - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In this category
    All those drawn by the Father - - - - - - - - - believe in Jesus

    What we can understand from John 6:
    This set of people - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In this category
    None can believe - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - unless drawn
    Those not being drawn by the Father - - - - - Cannot come to Jesus

    The legitimate understanding of this is that if you believe in Jesus then the Father has drawn you.

    While this is true:
    This set of people - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In this category
    All who believe in Jesus - - - - - - - - - - - - - drawn by the Father

    John 6 does not teach that:
    This set of people - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In this category
    All those drawn by the Father- - - - - - - - - - believe in Jesus


    I'm so far convinced the idea that "all those drawn by the Father necessarily come to faith in Jesus" isn't taught or supported in John 6. I'm not saying it's not a true statement, just that it's not supported in John 6. For a better and more thorough case you can reference Dr. Barry Creamer's blog post.
     
  9. 12strings

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    So in your view what does John 6:37 actually teach? ("All that the Father gives me will come to me")
    ...(I'm trying to think through a few possibilities other than the one that says: "God gives some people to Jesus, and those people then come to him" because that seems to be the view you are rejecting)....

    a. God Draws all people, but only gives some to Jesus, and that those are the ones who will come to Him? So the drawing is different than the giving.

    b. The Father gives only those who first beleive. So the order would be, God draws all, some believe, God gives those who believe to Christ, then they come to him?

    c. The the giving and drawing are the same, the father draws and gives all, but somehow not all those given actually WILL come?

    d. OTHER...?
     
  10. 12strings

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    Also, neither your post, nor the linked blog deal with verse 37 specifically. You both focus on the drawing aspect to the neglect of the "giving". Niether determines what the giving means. The Blogger simply asserts that the giving and drawing are not the same thing.

    But even if we leave out the drawing all together...we are left with verse 37 which says, "All that the Father gives me will come to me."

    If we say that it means, "All who believe, the father gives to the son" then we are switching around the causality of the statement...we are in effect making jesus say, "Actually, all who come to me, the father will give to me."
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    This teaching is wrong and here is why.....



    They are given to Jesus before the world was...they did not see or believe anything.
    His confusing use of the alphabet a= b= c=...does not show anything other than this author is making a perverse attempt to put the cart in front of the horse,and reverse God's revealed truth.

    To take what God has given and re-work it into a denial of the clear teaching.
    to make salvation and man centered word...denies the supernatural element that jesus teaches and is to be rejected...


    All the Father gives..shall come......they are made willing in the day of his power.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    All The Father gives SHALL COME no more..no less

    grace and the outward call in the preaching of the word can be resisted as in acts7:51 always....

    for the elect.....it is effectual because of God...not because of man. It is irresistable and effectual

    6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. [/B


    This effectual ,irrestiable grace does not work in a natural man...who cannot receive the word..because he needs a new heart given at regeneration. The effectual working and the gift of saving faith results in this ability to welcome the word and not resist.

    Any attempt to suggest that a natural man can receive the word.......apart from being born from above...... is unbiblical error.
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Dec 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2011
  13. humblethinker

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    yes, I agree... no problem... I accept the 'no more... no less'.

    What you said above does not say "All that are drawn are given by the Father.", which seems to be what you are meaning, which IS more than what you said above.
     
  14. zrs6v4

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    And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." (John 6:65 NASB)

    Words given, granted, and drawn are all used the same in the context. The Father gives, His giving is definite.

    His giving is His granting to come to the Son.

    His giving to the Son involves drawing which results in coming to the Son.

    All who come are save eternally bc they have been drawn and given to the Son.
     

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