Calvinism and Arminianism - Is Either Really Baptist?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by MichelleSuper711, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. MichelleSuper711

    MichelleSuper711
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    I got this from http://www.ChristianConnect.com and wanted to know what everyone thought....


    "The five points of Arminianism are:
    1.) God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving. (In other words predestination is said to be conditioned by God’s foreknowledge of who would respond to the gospel.)
    2.) Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.
    3.) Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. (Though accused of such, Arminius and his followers were not Pelagians.)
    4.) All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace in not irresistible.
    5.) Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith, but it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.

    Arminianism doctrine is fatally flawed in that it supports the heretical tradition that God’s grace can not be "resisted" and true Christians can "fall from grace." God clearly tells us that neither of these two suppositions are possible. More importantly, to adhere to such a doctrine is to completely deny the omniscience of God. Such a doctrine necessarily dictates that God can make a mistake


    The Five Points of Calvinism are:
    1.) That fallen man was totally unable to save himself. (Total Depravity)
    2.) That God’s electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man. (Unconditional Election)
    3.) That Christ’s atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect. (Limited Atonement)
    4.) That the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God’s Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect. (Irresistible Grace)
    5.) That those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith. (Perseverance of the saints)

    The Calvinist profession is also scripturally flawed, but in a spiritually doctrinal manner rather than in the character of its five individual parts. To adhere to its precepts is to support the doctrine of predestination or "fatalism," with God dictating who is to be saved and who is to be eternally separated from Him. While His omniscience is such that He surely knows who within the ranks of human kind will be saved eternally (their names will be found written in the Book of Life, after all), He does not predestinate them to their eternal destinations. That spiritual journey has to be the result of their own spiritual life-choices.


    Calvinism preaches limited atonement, but God repeatedly tells us otherwise in Scripture. Therefore, for anyone to adhere to the Calvinist profession is to deny God, calling Him a liar in the process."
     
  2. James_Newman

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    They are both wrong, and for some reason have trouble seeing any other veiwpoint than these two.
     
  3. webdog

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    Agreed:thumbsup:

    I always thought calvinists were presbyterians and arminians were catholics:laugh:
     
  4. J. Jump

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    Well count me as a third vote that they are both wrong. PM if youl want a couple of good study resources on the matter.
     
  5. drfuss

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    James writes:
    "They are both wrong, and for some reason have trouble seeing any other veiwpoint than these two."

    Since they are both wrong, why do people continue to classify others as either Calvinist of Arminian?

    These two classifications lead to many misunderstandings. IMHO, we should wise up and find more precise categories of beliefs.
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    Call me an Old Regular Baptist please!
     
  7. StefanM

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    Neither system is heretical, IMO.
     
  8. StraightAndNarrow

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    Armenianism doesn't claim that "God’s grace can not be resisted." Quite the contrary it says that each person acting on their free will can either accept or reject the gospel. Also, I don't think that the belief that someone can fall from grace is an integral part of Armenianism. Some Armenians believe that but most do not.
     
  9. 2BHizown

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    Arminianism puts man in control of his salvation.

    Calvinism is totally God honoring all in things, totally scriptural, with man fully dependent on God for his salvation and all else! This does not relieve man of being responsible for his actions and/or decisions.

    Those who are confused and/or object usually do not understand the truths of Calvinism and that they accurately reflect scripture. Most of what I read here about what calvinists believe is a gross distortion.
    Go to www.monergism.com and read on calvinism or even arminianism. Read The Five Points of Calvinism by Steele if you want to know the true scriptural beliefs of Calvinism.
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    Arminianism believes all men have a choice but that it still take Grace to save them. I never knew a Arminiam or someone labeled Arminiam who believes they are in control of their Salvation. I am unworthy and still am but by the mercies and Grace of God He raised my feet out of the mar of the clay and placed them upon a rock and that Rock is Jesus Christ, amen

    Calvinism says all the right words except they leave out faith/belief out of ever Scripture in the Bible from Genisis to Rev:. Oh, they quote it but don't believe it belongs to man, when their mentor Apostle Paul who said by Grace, through faith and not of yourselves but it is a gift of God, not of works, but they don't even attempt to explain what those works are when the Chapter they are referring is plainly speaking of the works of the Law. The same mentor, Apostle Paul in the book of Acts; told a man who had asked "what must I do to be saved" Paul said "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." The Calvinist claim "believing" is works and here is the same Apostle who said not of works is now telling them it is by the works of believing so he had to be talking about two different kind of works. It behooves us to find out what two different kind of works he is speaking about to find the truth. Read the whole Chapter of Ehp: and you will find out there it is talking about the works of the Law.
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

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    ditto.

    Joseph
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    It just could be we do understand the truths of Calvinism and John Calvin is why we reject the beliefs of Calvinism. I know it is why I do not accept it. Everyone else can speak for themselves. I am not a Arminiam either. I beleive the P in the Tulip OSAS and that is it. I believe in the choice of Arminiam but do not believe in falling from Grace. I place my beliefs upon the Scriptures and not upon either C or A. I doubt if we have done either side any good with the debates we have had on here.
     
  13. Pipedude

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    Some Calvinist said somewhere:

    Arminianism is the religion of common sense,
    Calvinism is the religion of St. Paul.
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    And that is the truth if I ever heard it. Remove Paul and the Calvinist would be gone.
     
  15. drfuss

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    Brother Bob writes:
    "I beleive the P in the Tulip OSAS and that is it."

    Borther Bob, what about the T (Total Depravity) in the Tulip?

    I thought the only issues here were the "uli" in Tulip.
     
  16. Brother Bob

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    T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

    I don't believe that man can save himself, but if I understand the way Calvinist explain T is that man is a corpse and cannot even believe under the T. I could be wrong. I believe in T as far as man cannot save himself. I think they take it farther. If they don't take it so far that a man cannot believe because he is so dead then I will accept T also.
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I am confused. What are you saying Brother Bob? Would you like to remove Paul from the Bible?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    No, I love Paul's epistles. I should of said remove the Calvinistic veiw on Romans and Eph;
     
  19. Rippon

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    BB let another one slip . Pauline teaching is Calvinistic . Yes , remove the teachings of Paul from the Scriptures and the Calvinistic understanding of salvation would have to rest on the teachings of Jesus primarily . That would still not invalidate the doctrines we hold dear , but Paul's writings certainly help to flesh things out .
     
  20. 2BHizown

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    So true, and regarding the OP, originally all Baptists were Calvinistic Baptist! Back in the early days in this country Calvinism was recognized as sound, clear and scriptural doctrine. Then, a diversion, watered down, easy believism entered, Finney and his preaching also made things look so much 'easier', though unbiblical and the progress of time, confusion and compromise tells the rest of the story quite clearly today!
    Men choose to believe what seems logical, easy to understand for them, not necessarily what is scriptural and perhaps harder to dig through. Gods ways are not our ways and we must labor to understand the harder parts. We must 'strive to enter in that strait gate'.
     

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