Calvinism, Arminianism & Free Grace

Hey timothy27

Yes! This is the mystery of grace and mercy. God gives us what we don't deserve (grace) and does not give us what we do deserve (mercy).

Can any of us NOT live a sinful life? It appears that you a very much overinflated view of human abilities and a tragic failure to comprehend human depravity.

God says that even our best of righteous deeds are yet nothing but "filthy rags" (Isa 64:6). We won't go into the better translations of the Hebrew phrase which is even more repulsive.

But this abuses the concept of grace and mercy. While it is possible for a person to live for the devil, sanctification is yet an important aspect of salvation.

Salvation is both justification and sanctification.

At the moment of faith one is both justified (forgiven and declared righteous) and sanctified (set aside unto God in His covenantal family). They are inseparable. While they are inseparable, they are not the same.

Justification is in parallel with, yet distinct from sanctification. When you only focus on the distinctiveness, then you set yourself up for the strawman that ignores sanctification.

When you focus on the parallel aspect, it is possible to blend them together as the Catholics, CoCers, Wesleyan, Mormon, JW's, ECLA, etc. etc. etc.

One must keep all aspects together: parallel, inseparable, yet disctinct. Over emphasis of any one can lead to big error.

Hope this helps
Lloyd

 

Some have argued that the saints are as depraved and bound to slavery to sin as any others so that all the arguments in scripture for endurance and faithfulness are just so much hot air. But is the Word of God really endorsing the idea of the “Wicked witness of the righteous’ or the “unright righteous” or the “enslaved saints” doomed to sin and rebellion? Does it really allow us to be “Self-deceived until the day we die” living in slavery to sin?

Others argue that “failure to persevere means eternal life” for the saints.

Question: IS that merely deception on the part of some proponents of “OSAS”? And in that case “should” we allow ourselves to “be deceived”??

(And in making this argument I realize that 5PT calvinists hold to OSAS in a way that does not violate the text on endurance and Perseverance -- so for once - I am not exposing flaws in that model!)

God is not calling us “TO BE” deceived on this point – but rather “NOT to be DECEIVED”.

See?

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a
pure heart fervently:

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Romans 2

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...

Let "the text" speak.

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".

Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.

It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.

Why treat ALL in this way?

ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??


How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

ANSWER: It does not.
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Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

Paul appears to be in harmony with Christ here as Christ said that those who knew there master's will and did it not receive many lashes but those that did not know the master's will and yet did deeds worthy of punishment - receive few

Notice that Christ does not assume everyone goes to hell (both those who KNEW the Bible and those who did not) anymore than Paul would make such an absurd statement in Romans 2. Rather the chapter is in context with the call for repentance as noted at the start.

Having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now sums it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers. The test is the same Matt 7 indicator “NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord – but he who DOES” for the good tree produces good fruit.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin".

Paul now continues with the succeeding case! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.

There actually were Gentiles that really did not have the Law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the Law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "the Law written on the heart" is new covenant terminology. Heb 8, 2Cor 3!!! Yes indeed we have the succeeding case as well as the failing case made in this non-myopic chapter of God's infallible word.

wow! Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is gospel - good news that a future judgment, where the Gentiles are shown to be doers of the Law and not merely hearers only, is coming. A future Christ centered judgment!! What a Christ-centered gospel Paul has in this chapter!!

2Cor 5:10

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Hey Bob

Do you actually think anybody reads your cut and paste errors?

Are you actually that insensitive to a genuine exchange?

Opps! I forgot Mr. insensitive to personal exchanges TEN THOUSAND posts strong.

Do you ever wonder why no one responds to your large blocks of error?
Lloyd

 

Hey LARGE BLOCKS of ERROR BOB

I've seen your Romans 2 block many times. I have refuted it several times as well.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

The Jews looked down on the Gentiles partly because they did not have the revelation of God’s will in the Mosaic Law. But, as Paul pointed out, there are moral Gentiles who do by nature things required by the Law. Such persons show that the Law is not to be found only on tablets of stone and included in the writings of Moses; it is also inscribed in their hearts and is reflected in their actions, consciences, and thoughts. The Law given to Israel is in reality only a specific statement of God’s moral and spiritual requirements for everyone. Moral Gentiles by their actions show that the requirements (lit., “the work”) of the Law are written on their hearts. This is confirmed by their consciences, the faculty within human beings that evaluates their actions, along with their thoughts that either accuse or excuse them of sin. This is why Paul called such Gentiles a law for themselves (v. 14).

Verse 15 continues the thought of the preceding verse. The fact of conscience even among Gentiles indicates the existence of law and a measure of revelation from God. The article is used to call special attention to the modifier. Paul, therefore, has established his case for a ground of judgment of the Gentiles. The judgment will be deferred until the day of judgment according to vs. 16. The judgment will be based on such revelation as God has given the Gentiles. The Jew to whom more light was given will be subject to the greater condemnation.

The third witness to God and His judgments was that of the conscience which accuses or excuses one concerning right and wrong. Even before written revelation condemned sin, the Gentiles possessed this inner monitor of the soul which convicted them of sin (Rom 2:14–15). Therefore through creation, tradition, and the voice of conscience the Gentiles knew of God and His ways, and any turning from this truth left them without excuse.

Romans 2:13 is not an explanation of how to be justified, but a standard to which none will attain, as evidenced by Paul’s argument in 3:1–20. He rejects this interpretation of 2:13 as “hypothetical” without adequate reason.

Bad Bob Bad!
Do not rely upon insensitive cut and paste stuff!
Lloyd

 

Agree with you on this one, Lloyd.