Calvinism is based upon an assumption

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Feb 6, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
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    I believe Calvinism is based on one false assumption. I realize that is a large accusation, but until someone can refute my arguement I'll stand by it.

    Calvinists assume passages of scripture addressed to the apostles during the apostolic age is always applicable to us in regard to salvation. Let me prove my point:

    Let's take John 15:16 for example: "You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit."

    My position: God elects or chooses to effectually call the apostles.

    Calvinist position: God elects or chooses to effectually call the apostles and all future believers.

    Fact: Jesus was speaking to the apostles in this passage.

    Assumption: Jesus meant this for everyone who believes.

    Therefore, Calvinism rests upon an assumption. My position rests upon a fact. The burden to link the application of "Sovereign Election" and "Effectual Calling" to all future believers is on you because your making the assumption. I, on the other hand, am presenting a fact.

    The burden is on you, please prove your position.

    With Respect,
    Bro. Bill
     
  2. npetreley

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    Start a few more threads with the same claims. Perhaps if you spam the board enough someone will care.
     
  3. William C

    William C
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    There he goes again, ladies and gentlemen, ignoring the weird guy because he is just presenting his "OPINION".

    Funny, how he answers everyone else opinions based upon their interpretations but he avoids mine. Hmmmm

    Maybe I've hit a nerve? [​IMG]

    Bro. Bill
     
  4. William C

    William C
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    Npetreley and Sturgman,

    You keep saying that I haven't presented any scriptural support for my view that we are saved "differently" than the apostles.

    I have, here they are simply laid out for you:

    1) Paul and his claims of Apostolic Authority rest upon his unique calling (Galatians 1)

    2) The fact that Scripture passages having to do with "effectual calling" and "Sovereign election" are addressed to the apostles.

    3) Jesus' prayer in which he specifies that his apostles were "given to him by the father" but does not make that distinction about those "who believe by their message." (Jn 17)

    4) Jesus' speaking of the sheep in John 10 says that there is another flock of sheep that are yet to come in suggesting they come in through faith.

    5) The fact that the apostles were not saved by grace through faith. But we are! Jesus said to Thomas, "You believe because you've seen me, but blessed are they who do not see me but still believe." Thomas came to believe in a different way than we do.

    I could go on but I'm beginning to learn that you all have a tendency to ignore my arguements all together if its too long for you to handle.

    HOW MUCH MORE "SCRIPTURAL" ARGUEMENTS DO YOU TWO NEED BEFORE YOU STOP IGNORING MY POSTS?

    Bro. Bill :eek:
     
  5. russell55

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    What about the Thessalonian believers? Were they saved differently than we are?

    But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    My assumption: We are saved in exactly the same way the Thessalonian believers were.

    I think this is a very reasonable assumption--in fact, the only reasonable assumption--since we are never told differently. Moreover, since we are told that God is the same throughout history, it is reasonable to assume that He works salvation in the same way throughout history.

    Do you assume otherwise? If so, on what basis do you make the assumption that God has changed the way of salvation? If you think it has changed since the Thessalonian believers came to faith, then the burden of proof is on you, since your assumption is the more counterintuitive (or unreasonable) of the two.

    Whoa Nellie! This is NOT what the apostle Paul said:

    And YOU were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which YOU formerly walked...among them WE TOO all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh...and were by nature children of wrath, EVEN AS THE REST. But God, being righ in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved US, even when WE were dead in our trangressions, made US alive together with Christ (by grace YOU have been saved) and raised US up with Him, and seated US with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus...For by grace YOU have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For WE are His workmanship....

    The WE's ( Apostle Paul included) and YOU's (other believers) are intermingled within this explanation of salvation, and they are all saved by grace through faith. We (the apostle Paul includes Himself) are His workmanship BECAUSE (that's what the word "for" means) we are saved by grace through faith, through God's work and not our own work.

    Its no wonder people are dismissing your argument without engaging you in discussion. What you are espousing here is against the direct teaching of scripture....and certainly not worth the number of threads you are starting on the same subject.

    [ February 06, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  6. TheTravelingMinstrel

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    Bill, you have not given support for your argument from scripture. All you are doing is making a statement and since that statement has no support, it is worthless.

    You can keep spamming the boards all you want, but if you don't have any scriptural support, we all are just going to ignore you.
     
  7. TomMann

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    After viewing the numerous posts of similar nature on several different topics.... Why don't we just cut to the chase....? What is it exactally that you are setting yourself to do?
     
  8. Yelsew

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    Bill does have one valid point.

    Many take Jesus' words said directly to his apostles as being words to a class of people that Calvinist call the elect. When in reality Jesus himself did not make that connection.

    One would have to believe that Jesus was acting independent from the Father. There simply is nothing to support such a belief.

    Is there an Elect? Prove it! Identify them by name, their names are written in the Book of Life. Can't? Then why insist that God must save only the elect?
     
  9. William C

    William C
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    Ok, for the sake of arguement lets say that all believers are in view in this text. You must remember the issues of the first apostles. They were not dealing with debates of Calvinism versus Arminianism they were dealing with Gentiles being allowed to relate to God for the first time as His people. Hermeneutics force us to ask, Who is Paul's audience. If you know your bible you know that the church in Thessalonica was predominantly Gentile. So it is easy to see that the point Paul is making is that God has chosen the Gentiles for salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit. This was a new concept to their world that Gentiles were chosen to be granted the ability to come into a relationship with God through faith as well.

    So, it would be like Paul is saying, We thank the Lord that he has chosen to allow salvation for the Gentiles (his audience) and not just the Jews.

    Whoa Nellie! This is NOT what the apostle Paul said:

    And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked...among them WE TOO all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh...and were by nature children of wrath, EVEN AS THE REST. But God, being righ in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trangressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus...For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship....

    The WE's ( Apostle Paul included) and YOU's (other believers) are intermingled within this explanation of salvation, and they are all saved by grace through faith. We ( the apostle Paul includes Himself) are His workmanship BECAUSE (that's what the word "for" means) we are saved by grace through faith, through God's work and not our own work.

    What you are espousing here is against the direct teaching of scripture, and not worth the number of threads you are starting on the same subject. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Ok, maybe I shouldn't have started so many threads, but lets move on to the arguements.

    I notice you ignored my scripture reference to Thomas. Do you believe that the apostles had to have faith (like we have) eventhough they witnessed Christ for themselves?

    Paul does use the word "you" and not "we" when he says. "You have been saved by grace through faith." As apposed to his "we" verses which apply to him as an apostles. And he is addressing those who were not with Christ in that portion of the text, so this view actually supports my interpretation, not yours. Thanks for the arguement.

    Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus and heard the revelation of Christ from Christ Himself. What about that is "faith?" We believe through faith. The disciples saw it first hand and were appointed to a divine task.

    You're the one who is directly apposed to the scripture.

    With Respect,
    Bro. Bill
     
  10. TomMann

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    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: KJV

    Perhaps you don't make the connection, I do!
     
  11. William C

    William C
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    I'm so tired of hearing this stupid arguement!

    I could say the exact same thing about your belief. You're the one whose interpretation is based upon an assumption. Not mine! Just because there are more of you, you all think you don't have to provide scriptural support for your view.

    "We're the holier than thou Calvinists and we don't have to defend our interpretations and opinions because we are Calvinists and that's enough." Give me a break!!!

    You ask me to provide support that we are saved differently than the apostles. I provide 5 scripturally supported arguements and none of you have even attempted to address them. You all just keep saying, "were going to ignore you until you have scriptural support." If your waiting for me to find a verse that spells out my exact belief, it's not going to happen. And guess what, you ain't going to find one for the Calvinistic system either!

    Here is a question for you! Why don't you say the same thing to the Arminians on this board who argue without scriptural support. You still refute their claims and opinions, but you won't do that with me. I wonder why?

    Could I be on to something here? Hmmm [​IMG]

    Bro. Bill
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    State your points one time. Do not repeat them in different threads.

    As for the point under discussion, the reason you attribute these things only to the apostles is becuase you understand what they mean, you simply do not want to go where it takes you. The way you avoid it is to change the referent. That is not a good way to do exegesis. Paul refers election to those other than the apostles, as does Peter, Christ, and the other NT authors. What is interesting is that you understand exactly the meaning; you just dislike the implications it seems to me.
     
  13. Rev. G

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    1) Calvinism does rest upon an assumption . . . that the Bible is the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God.

    2) Election and related topics are not only discussed in the Gospel of John, but also in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

    3) Election and related topics are discussed in Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 2 Timothy, Titus, Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter and Revelation.

    4) From #2 and #3 it is evident that election and related topics are not limited to Jesus' words to the Apostles.
     
  14. William C

    William C
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    First, I made three distinct arguements in each of my three posts and I used scripture to support my claims. The only repetition was in my replies to repeatitive arguements. I'll be careful not to post so many threads at a time from now on.

    Now let's move on.

    You're correct Pastor Larry. I was a Calvinist for years and I am all too fimiliar with the meaning of these texts. And you are correct, I don't like where they take me. They take me to contradictions and confusion if applied the way that Calvinists apply them.

    You're willing to accept the paradox that God's Sovereignity and man's responsiblity creates in the Calvinistic system. I'm not. It is confusing and unstable and I don't believe that God would author a confusing and unstable system of belief.

    How can God geniunly call someone he is fully aware cannot come to Him and still hold him responsible for not coming? That is nonsense and deep down every Calvinist knows it. He reconciles it by say, "God's ways are higher than ours." But that's just a theological cop-out that could be applied to any arguement a system cannot answer. I don't buy it.

    My interpretation, which IS possible you have to admit, does not afford this paradox. In fact, it explains these apparent contradictions and supplies answers that Calvinism fails to answer.

    Such as, "Why does God elect certain individuals and not others?"

    "How can God hold man responsible for something in which they have absolutely no control over?"

    "Why does the Bible present the gospel as something that can be accepted or rejected by anyone?"

    Pastor Larry, I have a question for you. Where does Paul, Peter, Christ and the other apostles refer to election to those other than the first disciples?

    Thanks,
    Bro. Bill
     
  15. William C

    William C
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  16. Yelsew

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    If you think they did not hear, see, and feel, Jesus just as we do then you are not living in the same natural life that most of us live in. They heard with their own ears, they saw with their own eyes, and some even touched Jesus in the same manner that many of us would. They simply did not have the written word of God to search the scriptures that we do to find out if these things are true. The Old testament, the Law and the Prophets contained nearly 70 prophesies about Jesus but not one of those prophesies would have been convincing enough by its self to make me or anyone else recognize Jesus to be the Son of God or the Messiah. The Apostles needed to come to the point where they could acknowledge Jesus for who and what he is in the same manner that we must come to that point.
     
  17. Yelsew

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    He also said that he has other sheep!
     
  18. TomMann

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    No problem here. Paul did have a unique calling apart from all other apostles and all other believers..... even as each of us has a unique calling apart from any other.

    John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    This is just one of many verses that are not directed strictly to the apostles.

    John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    It seems "he has" made this distinction about "those" other than the apostles!!!

    Faith is how everyone that comes in comes in!!!!!

    Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    Acts 15:8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    Eph 2:5 Even when "we" were dead in sins, hath quickened "us" together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Even as they......., and no difference between us and them!!!!

    Don't you think that the apostles might take acception to your saying they were not saved by grace through faith????

    Some of us were wondering how long it would be until you make a post worth acknowledging!!
     
  19. William C

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    If you think they did not hear, see, and feel, Jesus just as we do then you are not living in the same natural life that most of us live in. They heard with their own ears, they saw with their own eyes, and some even touched Jesus in the same manner that many of us would. They simply did not have the written word of God to search the scriptures that we do to find out if these things are true. The Old testament, the Law and the Prophets contained nearly 70 prophesies about Jesus but not one of those prophesies would have been convincing enough by its self to make me or anyone else recognize Jesus to be the Son of God or the Messiah. The Apostles needed to come to the point where they could acknowledge Jesus for who and what he is in the same manner that we must come to that point. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree, but there is a difference. Thomas believed because he saw his hands and his scars. You and I believe because of faith. Not sight. Plus there is the little problem of scripture which clearly teaches that the apostles were "predestined" and "chosen" and "elect." You do an injustice to the text when you try to explain that away.

    Bro. Bill
     
  20. rlvaughn

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    Brother Bill, you make several errors in your logic in trying to present your case. One is that the Calvinistic extension of the fact is false because it is an assumption. Another is that your unstated assumption is correct. Though you did not extend it, permit me to do so for you, while correcting the logical errors.

    Bible position: God elects or chooses to effectually call the apostles.

    Calvinist position: God elects or chooses to effectually call the apostles and all future believers.

    Your position: Though God elects or chooses to effectually call the apostles, He didn't choose to effectually call all future believers.

    Fact: Jesus was speaking to the apostles in this passage.

    Calvinistic Assumption: Jesus meant this for everyone who believes.

    Your Assumption: Jesus did not mean this for everyone who believes.


    While you in your argument are stating that you believe a fact (and you do), Calvinists also believe this fact. Where the difference comes is in determining which assumption, yours or the Calvinists, is the proper Biblical position. I think that eventually your admission to the fact that God effectually called the apostles actually puts the burden of proof on you to show that He does not effectually call anyone else. You have admitted the plausibility of the Calvinistic position - that God can effectually call - with no reason to show why He cannot continue to do so, and with no reason to show why He has changed.

    The burden is on you, please prove your position. Thank you.
     

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