Calvinism is Catholicism if I'm wrong prove it

If you're saying that Calvinism is influenced by Augustine, then I think everyone already knows that.

Correct. So I have to ask once again, what's your point?

You say: Calvinism has its roots in Augustine. You say Augustine was the foundation of the Catholic church. Then you admit Calvinism does not resemble the doctrines of the current Catholic church.

You imply: Calvinism is rooted in the doctrines of Jerome and his translation errors in the Vulgate. So I pointed out that Luther refutes Jerome and the Vulgate repeatedly, yet still arrives at the same conclusions as Calvinism.

So - if Calvinism does not resemble the current doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, and it is an error to say that Calvinism is based on errors by Jerome, then what is your point?

 

And what we are saying is that you are wrong. We have shown you the biblical basis for the doctrine. We have shown you that it is what Christ and the apostles taught. But you are hung up on other men. You don't want to follow men (according to your statement) but that is exactly what you are doing. As you say, Open your eyes and try not to get me mixed up with what someone else has said. I realize this is hard sometimes but, in order for you to get a response that makes sense you need to direct your post to those whom you are conversing with.

This is the kind of irrelevant statement that we have warned you about. What these men may or may not have done is not the issue. I get tired of saying that and you should konw better. The test of doctrine is whether or not it conforms to Scripture. It has nothing to do with who taught it. Get that in the front and center of your thinking.

You say that calvinism is a dictated theology. It is ... dictated by Scripture which is to be our only guide. Yet you keep going to what other men have said. Get to Scripture.

You have already been proven wrong. Cavlinist and Catholicism are not the same. Calvinism has biblical support. It is not about control it is about truth.

 

I never heard that Augustine did that, but let's say for the sake of argument that both Augustine and Calvin were murderers of the worst kind and used the Bible to gain power. That still has nothing to do with whether or not the doctrines are true.

Put it this way -- suppose you found out tomorrow that Copernicus tried to use his view of the earth orbiting the sun in order to promote the worship of a sun god, and he wanted people to do that in order to start a sacrificial system to kill people for "ra". Would you start a campaign to get people to believe that the sun orbits the earth because his motives offended you?

Truth is truth. If Calvinism is true, you can't make it untrue by finding something wrong with Calvin. That's why we've been reminding you that others like Luther -- without Calvin's alleged motives or the allegations of errors from the Vulgate -- see the very same truths in scripture.

As I've said here many times, I haven't even READ Calvin, and ALL of the churches I have attended believe in free will -- so how could MY views be the fruit of the evil motives of Calvin?

[ February 20, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

Augustine was not the founder of the Roman Catholic Church. There was no RCC in Augustine's day. Roman Catholicism was a gradual developement over the centuries but no doubt Augustine has influenced Western Christianity be it Protestant or Catholic. One Historian remarked that the Protestant Reformation was a battle between Augustine's view of Salvation (Protestanism) vs. Augustine's view of the Church (Roman Catholicism). All of us reagardless of our theological persuasion be it Protestant or Catholic have been influenced by him.

Roman Catholicism actually is more Pelagian in theology and I would challenge anyone to find a Calvinist priest in the RCC today. Now That would be shocking!

 

Post deleted for lack of relevance to the Doctrine of soteriology. Once again gentlemen (and ladies that might be here), keep your posts on topic. It is relatively simple: If it deals with doctrine and its support, then it is acceptable. If it does not deal with doctrine, then please reserve it for the appropriate place.

Thank you,

[ February 20, 2003, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Woah Woah
I have no hatred for anyone on here. I am sorry you feel that way, maybe you are reading too much into my posts.

I feel the calvinism=catholicism is very weak. It is a tired argument that has been refuted time and time again. First (and most importantly) Scripture disproves your points. Second, history shows you to be wrong as well.

How can you attack my understanding of history???
Please show me where I am wrong in what I have said about history!!!
I have a feeling that I am a little more informed on historical (and even theological matters) if you are claiming that calvinism=catholicism.
How can you not see your argument has been refuted over and over again?

Please don't take this as me hating you....I don't hate you. You post some frustrating things, but I do not hate you.

When did I ever say I was a Calvinist? I just stated that your arguments are non-sense in light of history, I never claimed to be a Calvinist.

 

Kiffin, I posted exactly what you said, but I was accused by romanbear of not knowing history or theology.

I am a little confused that 8 people have posted my same arguments, but he decides to berate me for not knowing history or theology.

Kudos for your post (I agree) but prepare to be attacked for posting "wrong history" and "hate".

 

hateful? I still don't see it.

I HAVE read Calvin's "Institutes".

If you knew what Calvin taught you would know that the Catholic church wants nothing to do with most of what Calvin taught.

Catholicism has much more in common with Arminianism than Calvinism.

I know Calvin gets attacked for the Servetus execution. This is no excuse, but compared with the sheer number of executions happening all over the place this one execution was mild. Once again, that is not an excuse. Calvin did try and get a milder (by mild I mean 'more swift') execution.

Here's the problem with this thread: you made a baseless, wild statement..."calvinism is catholicism". But you gave NO Scriptural support, and a poor (VERY poor) understanding of history to "support" your claim. Then you want us to disprove a nonsensical claim.

*This is not hateful....in any way.

If anything your personal attacks on me are more hateful.

 

I have not accused you of anything...I just refuted your wrong understanding of history. That's not my "opinion", but rather historical facts. In fact, at no point did I even give my opinion...I just tried to set straight what actually happened in history. (I know, what a crazy concept )

If you would have made a Scriptural argument, then I would have argued Scripture.


Anyways, it seems that nothing will change your wrong view. You are stuck with your misunderstanding of history and will not be convinced. Oh well. I will move on to more fruitful discussions.

 

But if you had read along here, you would know that the irresistable grace has long been called a misnomer. The proper term is effectual call, referenced in Rom 8:29-30; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thess 2:13. The "setting apart of the Spirit" is the effectual call.

"Choosing you from the beginning" (Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13) both reference the choice of God before man was born and could do anything good or bad. It is therefore unconditional. Again, reading along here and interacting with the arguments while checking your emotions would have borne this out to you long ago.

Many Calvinists would agree with you and I would to some degree. The point of limited atonement is the question, Did Christ make salvation possible or did he save?? If you believe the latter, you believe in limited atonement. As has been pointed out, everyone limits the atonement, even you.

No it doesn't. It is your misunderstanding of the verse. Jesus clearly says that he will raise up at the last day those who believe in him. He says that it is impossible to be separated from teh love of God. The point of this verse is that those who refuse to forgive have never experienced the forgiveness of God. We are to forgive others as Christ has forgiven us (Eph 4:32).

You ask amazingly simple questions, that have been answered many times. It appears that you are not responding out of careful thought and analysis but rather out of emotion against something you have not taken the time to understand. I beg you to change your approach.

for my part, I find it hard to argue with "He has chosen you from the beginnign for salvation" and "he chose us in him before the foundation of hte world." It seems to be clear in what it says.

 

Calvinism's roots go back as far as Augustine. W.H.C. Frend says this about Augustine, in his book, "The Rise of Christianity" {Fortress Press, 1984, p. 672} 'The questing, sensitive youth had become the father of the Inquisition.'

 

Well, I didn't expect the spanish inquisition.

 

} 'The questing, sensitive youth had become the father of the Inquisition.'

This is speaking of Augustine, not Calvin.

You should know that the Doctrines of Grace go all the way back to the Ancient of Days.

Bro. Dallas

 

Ah - I found it...