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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by shodan, Feb 7, 2012.
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Calvinists are false, and so is Piper, so what does it matter what the two false teachers say about each other?
If you're talking about the fellow with the long question who slammed Piper, then took a swing at Sinclair Ferguson questioning and belittling their belief in giving the Gospel to every man and the "Knocking the L out of Tulip" in so doing, then my answer is simple, and biblical; We don't know who the elect are, and we don't selectively choose out of a group those whom we think are elect and preach only to them. Any on the outside of Reformed/Calvinistic belief who accuse Calvinists of this absurdity don't understand the doctrine in the first place, and secondly make a false accusation. We simply preach the Gospel, God's elect believe. 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
The man presenting this question (in the video) reminds me of a recent thread here where some children made a video quoting John 3:16, and the OP sort of slammed them for their presentation, for the sake of what "whole world" means.
Were the kids to qualify that and say "If you're elect?" No. What the kids were doing is telling those who watch "the Good News." The result of preaching the Gospel is that only those chosen in Him will be saved; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13-14; Eph. 1:4.
Anyone who preaches any other Gospel, that is, other than the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is preaching another Gospel. We are not to qualify the message, we are to preach it. God knows who are His. We don't.
P4T is on target.
There are those who have taken Calvinism to an extreme and think that preaching the Gospel is only for the elect. Which requires them to get self-righteous and judgmental because they have to determine who the elect happen to be. This is often referred to as hyper-Calvinism. It is unbiblical and damning.
Preach the Gospel by all means to all men so that by His means all the elect may be saved. That is evangelism according to Calvinism and it is most certainly biblical.
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ
Act 18:9 And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, "Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent;
Act 18:10 for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city."
Act 18:11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
You may not agree with the approach of either, but in two thousand years of church history, neither of them would be labeled false teachers.
You might claim their false beliefs of Calvinism have been around since Jesus, but that does not make them true. There have been false teachers two thousand years ago, just as Jesus warned
As for no one labeling them false...what happened to Servetus? What happened to him after he tried to go against Calvin? Did you not know that John Calvin had many people put to death?
My friend. This is really bad logic you are using. I really suggest you do your own reading rather than repeat what others have said.
It is apparent that you don't like Calvinism, but Calvinism (was not started by John Calvin) is not false and anyone associated with it is not false. You have absolutely no support for making a blanket statement such as this.
As far as Servetus? My friend. We must be careful judging Christians in past societies-There were no police, no special organizations etc... they did the best that they could with what little they had and knew. If we use your logic, any white Christian who owned a slave was false as well.
200 years from now. Christians will judge us in the same manner in how the church treated the homosexual community
The anti-Calvinistic assumption here is that Calvinists either do not or can not hold ALL the Scriptures.
That is blatantly false and itself a product of the same type of "logic" that one might accuse the Calvinists of holding, for that a priori presupposition cannot be determined by a study of the Word nor can it be demonstrated as truthful by the actions of actual Calvinists in the world -- many of whom have been THE prime examples of effective evangelism and missions throughout the life of the church.
My friend. Thank you for the video
I wasn't crazy about John Piper inviting Rick Warren. John Piper is obviously working through some things, and has not thought things through to associate himself with Warren, but I do not see how that is John Piper knocking the "L" out of T.U.L.I.P.
Us Calvinists have to be careful in how we interpret one another's words or actions, because we ourselves could be one interpretation away from being outside the camp as well.
Since ONLY God knows whom the very elect are though...
We are commanded to preach and teach the Cross of Christ, and let Him sort out what happens after we are faithful to do what he requires of us as His witnesses!
First, it has to be demonstrated that Warren is not in fact a Calvinist himself. That is almost always assumed because he applies missiological tactics to growing his church, but that does not, in and of itself, disqualify him from holding to doctrines of grace.
Alsp dependent upon which definition of Cal one holds to, as reformed see it as ALL of the system, while baptists tend to see it as regarding holding mainly to the DoG!
This is enlightening... Of course it will only add coals to the fire of those who abhor Calvinism and who also hate Warren. Seems that no one likes him (or wishes to be associated with him -- largely because they drink the kool-aid instead of learning just who Warren is).
I have a book of Sermons on all five points of Calvinism identified, defined and preached by C.H. Spurgeon. Yet, Spurgeon combined human responsibility and God's sovereignty in such a harmonous fashion in all his preaching that both sides claim him. He struck the perfect balance. That perfect balance is best expressed in these words "He invited all that would come to Christ to come."
also would depend on the mindset of each Christian, for if one holds to those such as Calvin and Spurgeon as teaching heresy, then it would not matter/bother to them how well it sounded!
Spurgeon was probably the greatest "soul winner" in his day. He also was one of the cheif proponents of Calvinism in his day. All I am saying is the doctrine of grace does not prohibit soul winning but rather promotes it if correctly understood. I believe Spurgeon correctly understood the relationship between the sovereignty of God and human responsibility and that is precisely why both Arminians and Calvinist both claim him as the example for preaching the gospel.
Jesus invited all who were "heaven ladened" and tired of sin to come to Him for rest. He always qualified his invitation. He never invited the righteous to come to him - "I came not to call the righteous." He never invited those in love with sin to come to him. Spurgeon invited all who "would" come to come. Spurgeon invited all who needed forgiveness, freedom, and remission of sins to come to Christ freely. Spurgeon always presented Christ as the Savior from sin and never the Savior for those in love with sin. He believed that in preaching the gospel and calling upon all his hearers to repent of sin and then invite all who freely desired to be freed from sin to come to Christ was perfectly in keeping with the doctrines of grace.
If we're still trying to please man, are we truly the slaves of Christ, and enslaved to preach the Gospel? Galatians 1:10.
What about entangling oneself with the affairs of the world, are we a good soldier when we do so? Popularity, politicking, pandering to others, political correctedness? 2Timothy 2:1-5.
That is your false opinion that I have not done my own reading and only repeat what others say. I see that you put great worth in your own opinion, as false as it is, and even the opinion of men you put above the word of God. Just as the doctrines called Calvinism, they are merely man’s opinions.
I do not like any teachings that go against the Truth. In addition, you are the one without support for your blanket statement. I know about Calvinism, and you do not know enough about me to say any of what you have been saying.
Stop trying to teach me to live in error and to go against the Word of God. The Word of God says we will know them by their fruits. John Calvin had people killed, and by his fruit I know him.
If there is anyone calling themselves a Christian, and yet they are killing homosexuals, like John Calvin killed, then those Christians should be judged.
My friend. That may be true. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
My friend. Looks like you already did.