Calvinistic comments....hrm

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Gina B, May 2, 2004.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Today I found out that I don't pray. That's right, I don't pray, and it's because Calvinists believe that prayer doesn't matter.

    Sometimes all I can do is shake my head and laugh. It's hard to be angry at people who are so sadly misinformed.

    What have you found out lately about what you and other Cals believe?

    Gina
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Interesting. Would you please show me your evidence that Calvinists believe that?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. russell55

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    Well, just last week I happened to mention in passing in a piece I wrote in my blog that I was Calvinistic. Someone insisted that then I believed that Adam and Eve sinned in the garden unwillingly. Tried to explain that God decreeing something doesn't mean that those who carry out that action do so unwillingly, but apparently I (the Calvinist, mind you) don't REALLY understand what Calvinists believe.
     
  4. Gina B

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    That's what I'd like to see. [​IMG]
    As a Calvinist, I hear these types of comments, and this is the one I heard today. I'd like others who get such comments to post them so I can put it all into one "doctrinal statement".
    Gina [​IMG]
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Gina,

    I have never met a Calvinist who doesn't believe in praying.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I did, however, have a friend in college who claimed to be a Calvinist Athiest who thought that God chose him to not believe in God and go to Hell, if it existed. However, I am pretty sure he was probably ridiculing Christianity and is probably not a very good source for learning and understanding the doctrines of the Bible.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. Theo

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    Hello there Gina,

    I am told I believe alot things that I actually do not believe. It is very frustrating. In fact, I was told by someone in another thread that I "assumed" something, as a Calvinist, that I in no way, shape, or form insinuated. Alot of times, I think Arminians are just rejurgitating that which they heard some Anti-Reformationist spew from the pulpit, and that, terribly out of context. But that's just my opinion. :)

    I am told that I believe I shouldn't pray (as you mentioned), I am told that I make God a respecter of persons, which for the Arminian to say such a thing to me, a Calvinist, is very ironic, for it is in fact the Arminian that makes God a respecter of persons.

    What do I mean by that? Well, the Arminian will claim that God looked through the corridors of time, and based His election of certain people on Him knowing they would believe.

    What is wrong with this theory? Well, for God to base His election on a foreseen "choice" is God respecting something within' the individual, hence, making God a respecter of something within the individual, where the Calvinist says that God respects nothing within' the individual, for election is based on His good pleasure alone.

    When God looks through the corridors of time, He see's that no one will choose Him, for they are all dead in sin, therefore, according to His good pleasure, He elects to conform some to the image of Christ.

    Gina, what I have seen from my experience with Hyper-Calvinists and Arminians alike, is that:

    Arminians negate the Sovereignty of God through the exaltation of man's will.

    Hyper-Calvinists negate the responsibility of man by going to the extremes on the topic of God's Sovereignty.

    Biblical Calvinism seeks to balance the two as the Scriptures do! Amen.

    Sola Scriptura,

    Theo

    P.S. If I can help with the statement of faith, by giving Scripture references for the things I have mentioned, let me know.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    by Theo
    Help me out and explain this, Theo.

    What is man's responsibility ? And how can one go to extremes on the topic of God's sovereignty ?
     
  9. Skandelon

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    I know this wasn't a question for me but please humor me. [​IMG]

    Man's responsiblity in light of the gospel is to repent and believe.

    I can think of 3 just off the top of my head:

    1. By teaching that God's sovereignty makes evangelism obsolete.

    2. By teaching that God's sovereignty would somehow be infringed upon if He indeed did create man with free will.

    3. By using man-made philosophical or logical ideas to determine what sovereignty "must" be even without scriptural backing for such claims.
     
  10. Rose Fenton

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    Have just read some of the debate going on re: Calvinism.
    I would not call myself a "Calvinist" although I believe the 5-points Tulip, because I see it as biblical. I believe in the Sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace. I also believe in evangelising, if at all possible - I can only do this through writing, because lack of speech is one of my disablements in chronic illness. man's responsibility is to repent and believe the gospel, but he is only able to do this by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, for until this event, he is dead in trespasses and sins.
    Please correct me if I am wrong. My husband and I believe this to be the truth. Yours, By His grace, Rose
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    Is the call to repent a universal call ? Is the call to believe a universal call ? Are those who have not been foreknown, predestinated, and chosen unto salvation under obligation to repent ?
     
  12. Skandelon

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    Rose, you are correct. It is man's responsibility to repent and believe. The very word responsible implies and connotes being "response" "able" or able to respond. "Respond to what?" You may ask. The powerful call of the Holy Spirit wrought message of the cross. The gospel, according to Paul, is the power of God unto salvation (Rm 1:16). Therefore, you are also correct in your belief that one cannot respond until their is a work of the Holy Spirit. This work is not irresistable (Acts 7:14) but it is powerful enough and certainly sufficient to over come the natural condition of man. This, I believe, is where Calvinists err in their interpretation of the scripture. The gospel IS a work of the Holy Spirit and it is sufficient to save the most wayward heart, though some may choose to resist and deny its truth.

    Show me where scripture teaches men FROM BIRTH cannot respond in faith to the gospel and I'll be the first to admit my error.

    [ May 08, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Skandelon ]
     
  13. Skandelon

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    This is a flawed question. It assumes that your position is true. God has foreknown them because of the fact they spend all eternity with Him, they will spend all eternity with him because they believe and they believed because the heard the powerful truth of the Holy Spirit wrought gospel message. All men are under "obligation" to repent and will be held accountable for not doing so.

    The point is that believers are predestined to become like Christ. The point IS NOT that certain select people are predestined to become believers. That is where you err.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    You want to know what I really believe ? I believe that I cannot confine God's people, those for whom He died, to the circle of 'believers'. If I do that, then I will be just like Arminians and Calvinists who believe that God needs men and means to regenerate and convert people.

    The Bible says God foreknew and elected His people unto salvation, sent His Son to redeem them, and that they are scattered all over the earth among all nations, all tongues, all tribes, in all ages.

    The Holy Spirit regenerates them independent of means, independent of the obedience of men to preach, independent of the Gospel which has no power at all unto eternal salvation. All His people are predestined to be conformed to the image of His only begotten Son in heaven, in eternity future, not on earth. On earth, they are to live like Christ, think like Christ, submit like Christ. Under the preaching of the Gospel, in a gospel church, they are to learn doctrine, and how to live as redeemed people, as believers added unto the Lord. However, their being in or out of a gospel church in no way takes away the fact that they are God's elect.

    If all men are under obligation to repent, then God must be a monster, because unless He quickens them, they will not repent and come to Him.

    Therefore, if by their nature, they will not come to Him without His working His will on them, why should He condemn them to an eternity of suffering in hell ?

    The only men called upon to repent and to come to God are those whom He has elected to salvation, because to them He gives the quickening power of the Spirit, enabling repentance in them, and drawing them to Christ. The rest of mankind He has abandoned to their sins and He will judge according to their works.
     
  15. Skandelon

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    Wow. A real life Hyper-Calvinist. I didn't know you guys still existed. So you really believe the "Gospel has no power at all unto eternal salvation?" So you disagree with Paul who wrote "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation?"

    I think I'll let you take that up with him.

    I would love to hear a traditional Calvinist jump in here and debate you because it guys like you that make them look so bad.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    by Skandelon:
    Oh, Romans 1:16-18.

    I know that passage by heart. It is what drove me when I was still Arminian like you to knock on doors, hand out pamphlets with those silly 'sinners' prayers' in them, stand on street corner with a megaphone in hand shouting 'repent ye, repent ye' not minding the jeers and the fingers and the crumpled papers thrown at us. I always had that verse in mind when I preached at the top of my voice into a microphone connected to a loudspeaker on top of the roof of the church so neighbors around who worshipped images and confessed their sins to priests can hear the 'gospel which is the power of God unto salvation' and endured the rocks and mud and feces thrown on top of the roof or thru the doors of the church building.

    Until I looked closely at the topic, at the suggestion of a friend, and saw that this gospel Paul speaks of is not unto eternal salvation to be revealed to unredeemed sinners, for the letter was addressed to believers already, but, the gospel of God's righteousness, to be revealed to those who are already believers and worshippers of the One true God living in the capital of paganism, Rome itself.

    That is why the gospel is to be preached, to reveal the righteousness of God to His people, to convert those who have been regenerated by the Spirit, to teach them how to live as citizens of heaven and children of light in a kingdom of darkness.

    Check out your Matthew 28:18-20, the so-called 'Great Commission', nowhere does the Lord say that preaching the gospel will result in souls being redeemed. Let me save you the trouble:

    The gospel is the good news intended for the ears of God's people alone that their salvation is complete. Done. What follows for them is to hear instructions in righteousness. Doctrine. Reproof. Where God sends a preacher, there the preacher preaches and teaches. His message does not save, it brings life and immortality to light for the regenerate soul.

    Where God does not send a preacher, His people are eternally saved, with or without a preacher's message and teaching.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Also, 'hyper-Calvinists', if I am not mistaken, are those who do not believe the preaching of the gospel is necessary. I am not a 'hyper' Calvinist since I am not a Calvinist, and therefore, cannot be hyper of something I am not.

    I believe the gospel is to be preached to teach, to give instruction, to reveal the life which is already in the redeemed, bring to light his immortality which is his through the sacrifice of God's only begotten Son, the Living that the dead may have life.

    The gospel is to be preached because it honors God, because it reveals His righteousness, His judgment, His justice, and His mercy and grace.

    The gospel is to be preached anywhere and anytime the Lord gives occassion or opens the door, because He does so for the reason He gave Paul, "I have much people here".

    I think hyper-Calvinists are those people Gina was originally referring to, who think that God predestined everything in every man's life, even the hot air he expels, therefore, since God already knows what His child needs, and He already knows if this needs will be granted, there is no need to pray.

    I believe prayer is an essential part of the child of God's life, they who have been so instructed as to the correct recipient of their prayers. I believe prayer affirms and reaffirms the child of God's dependence on God, for everything he needs, for God's favor.

    I believe prayer is a sweet savor to God, a sweet-smelling incense to Him. Therefore, prayer is a necessity, a must, in an instructed child of God's life. Prayer is the language of a grateful and humbled heart. Refusal to pray, on the other hand, is a manifestation of a proud and unthankful heart.
     
  18. Frogman

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    The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation; and the power of God is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of holiness whereby Jesus was resurrected from the grave.

    You make the 'power' of God to be found in man. Bro. Pinyobaptist is far from a hyper-calvinist, he believes whosoever will, shall come because he believes whosoever will has been given to Christ.

    The most frustrating thing I have been told is that I do not believe the plain statement of scripture, that I have to add Calvinistic commentary to it, or make up my own twists.

    That Arminians believe the simple presentation of scripture while Calvinists do not.

    But in truth, I believe it stronger than any arminian or free-willer ever has believed it or ever will believe it.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  19. Skandelon

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    No, hyper Calvinists believed just as you do. That the gospel message has no power to bring salvation and that its only purpose is to teach those who are already saved. That is hyper Calvinism. Some are more extreme than other, granted, but it is Hyperism.

    I think it is sad that you no longer have the passion you once had to preach the message from roof tops because of a misled doctrine. That is ashame.

    How will they believe and be saved unless someone tells them?

    Let me try to understand you one last time, are you saying that the message is not meant to save those who believe it? There are several passages just off the top of my head that contradict that belief. How do you justify that?
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    Skandelon said:
    Thank you, but, actually, I am happier now, not because I shy away from confrontational preaching, but, because I know I am now preaching and teaching what is truly God-honoring, God-glorifying, and man-abasing, as opposed to the lip service of modern Arminianism to God's glory and sovereignty and the exaltation of man's will over God's will.


    By God raising up Godly teachers and preachers in church and sending them out through His Holy Spirit that those in Israel who' have the zeal of God but not according to knowledge' may be instructed and rooted in the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

    The message, the gospel message of a finished salvation, if that is what you mean, is not meant to eternally save anyone, not just those who believe it. It is intended to bring life and immortality to light for those who already have life and immortality by virtue of the sacrifice of the Lamb of Calvary.

    You see, the difference between us is that you believe Christ died for all men, without distinction, and that salvation is now a possibility, if any man will believe the good news because God predicated His election of the individual on the individual's response to the Gospel and not on His sacrifice of His Son.


    I believe that God elected certain men unto salvation based solely upon Himself and His mercy and not on any good thing on the part of the elect (such as his response to the gospel message). And that when Jesus Christ said 'it is finished', that was just it. Finished. The salvation of those whom God had elected and given to Him, is finished. None perished, except the son of perdition, none will perish, ever, because they are forever preserved in Christ. Their salvation is a reality, not a possibility.

    The gospel of salvation is simply the good news that salvation is a fact. A finished event for the burdened sinner, the poor in spirit. Now, those whom God has chosen to salvation, God the Holy Spirit will regenerate in His own time.

    If God sends a preacher to him, her, or them, that preacher's job is to give them the gospel message of a finished salvation, which they will receive gladly, being of regenerate hearts, the gospel message not being the cause of their regeneration, but the Spirit Himself, baptize them and gather them into a church whose ministry is to glorify God in their midst, and instruct them in the way of righteousness, until their Redeemer comes for them.

    I have no doubt about that. Everyone of all persuasions have these verses.
     

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