Calvinists, answer this one for me.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Feb 27, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    MK10:15: Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it."

    Calvinists need to ask themselves this question: What was it about a child that Jesus wanted us to become like?

    Is there something good about this child? What is better about this child than the average man?

    If a child is born "Totally depraved" what "good" is there in him that makes him MORE fit for heaven?

    Calvinists are always insisting that Arminians are the ones who try to take the credit for our salvation by claiming that there is something better about us if we believe. Well, apparently Christ saw something better in children.

    If God has selected some children for salvation and has passed by others, why would he point out children in general as an example of what we must become like in order to enter heaven? Afterall, aren't all of them totally and completely depraved without any good or pleasing thing in them?

    Please explain. [​IMG]
     
  2. Hamtramck_Mike

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    There is no Loftly Adult Pride in little children Skandelon.

    Our Lord Jesus is telling us to empty ourselves of our foolish pride and become as little children in order to truly see what the Kingdom of God is!
     
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    No, actually He says we "will never enter it."

    So, are you saying children are more humble than adults? Is it that humility that makes them more fit for heaven.

    Please help me understand.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    The issue is type of faith ... Children are unsophisticated in their faith. When their father says it, they believe it. They are completely dependent on someone else. It has nothing to do with sin; it has everything to do with self-sufficiency.

    This verse has nothing to do with the CvA discussion. It is a discussion about the type of humility and trust that saves.
     
  5. Yelsew2

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    It is a matter of trust. Children are not "self-reliant". They trust 'parental authorities' to take care of them, to protect them from harm, to feed them and comfort them, to teach them, but most of all they accept the love given to them, and respond with total sincerity.

    There is no more wonderful experience than to have a small child crawl up onto you lap and fall asleep in you arms because they know it is a safe place to be.

    That is what God, our father wants from us!
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    It all depends on what age the little child is... He doesn't say baby he says little child... What age a toddler who has the curiousity to ask "WHY" but accepts things as they are!... So should we in our Salvation... I know I have Eternal Salvation and heaven is my eternal home... Then again I stand in wonder with tears running down my face... WHY ME LORD?... What good did you ever find in me that you would send you beloved Son Christ Jesus to pay for my sins on Calvary... We depend on him alone and his sacrifice and without that we are sure hellbound... I have said it before and will repeat it again... JESUS WILL SAVE ALL HIS CHILDREN HE CAME TO DIE FOR... THE SHEEP AND NO ONE ELSE!... WE ARE ALL BOUND FOR GLORY!... Brother Glen
     
  7. Hamtramck_Mike

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    This also speaks well to the verse:

    Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it

    Proverbs 22:6
     
  8. Hamtramck_Mike

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    AMEN and AMEN! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  9. Yelsew2

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    Who was Isaiah speaking of some centuries before the Christ? "All we like Sheep have gone astray..."

    If you say "the elect" you are right. But, because Isaiah, a prophet to the Jews, knew only of the Jews, then it must be the Jews who are the Elect. Isaiah did not know the gentiles. He could not think of God in terms of the gentiles. It is only these centuries later that we gentiles read Isaiah in the light of our interpretations, that we conclude in our own minds that we were included in his writings. But not so! Isaiah would have considered us to be "dogs", as all gentiles were considered to be in Jesus' time among us, and not sheep as you are considering us.

    However, the sheep of the New Testament includes all who believe in Jesus. Therefore you are right Jesus will save ALL who believe in Him, regardless of your interpretation of "election".

    You are wrong to think that there is a limit to those who Jesus died for, because prophesy and recorded scripture does not place any limit except "the world" on who Jesus came to die for. Jesus' death removed the penalty for the sins of all mankind, not just some nebulous undefinable "elect".

    Jesus' death must never be equated to salvation, because the atoning death of Jesus covers by far more in number than the count of those who will be saved through faith.
     
  10. Hamtramck_Mike

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    Yelsew, how do you know that Isaiah did not know the Gentiles, did you sneak off and ask him? Remember, he was writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit!

    A Prophet is a Prophet, irregardless of ethnicity or anything else.

    All of the Old Testament Prophets looked foward to the Cross; we look back to it

    If His death removed the penalty for the sins of all mankind, than all mankind would be saved

    Yelsew the more we converse about this, the more I am convinced that the Doctrines of Grace are indeed Biblical because the arguments you put forth to support and maintain your views stray further and further from orthodoxy the deeper we go with this. But I do love and appreciate this exchange with you because it gives others a chance to read our points and come to a greater understanding of Scripture!

    In His Love,
    Michael
     
  11. Yelsew2

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    There is no scripture that equates atonement for sin and eternal salvation; or that atoned sins are equal to Salvation, why do you make that connection?

    Atonement, or 'atoned for sins', are not equal to forgiveness! The reason is this, transgression has not been acknowledged or confessed by the one who's sins have been atoned, neither has repentance has been demonstrated, therefore No forgiveness has been given. HOWEVER, the penalty for those sins, has been paid so that the sinner need not pay that penalty, but instead, through faith in God can have life everlasting.

    Penalty removed, makes life possible, but not a sure thing. Therefore, Jesus' atonement for sin is for all the sins of the world, so that "whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life." Everlasting life was not possible while the penalty for sin (death) remained unpaid by the sinner! Therefore, without atonement, which is the substitutionary payment of a debt made by one on behalf of others, there could be no life, for all who sin must die, and All have sinned!

    Do you agree that the purpose of Jesus' atonement for sins is so that everlasting life is possible?

    By the way Michael, I am waiting to see someone prove my beliefs wrong, and so far no one has!
     
  12. Scofield

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    MK 10:15: Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it."

    I think 'as' is important in understanding this passage.
     
  13. Yelsew2

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    "as" in Mark 10:15 means "in the manner of"

    "with the attitude of"

    "carrying the baggage of"

    "having the demeanor of"

    "with the curiosity of"

    "with the sincerity of"

    It does not mean, "while being a little child"
     
  14. Skandelon

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    The question still stands.

    What is it about the child that is "better" than an adult that makes him more fit to "receive" the kingdom of God?

    Come on Calvinists. You guys are always holding up the question, "What makes you better than the lost guy who rejects the gospel?"

    Why can't you answer this one? What makes a child better?

    Larry says:
    So I guess he believes that the childlike faith or humility is the one thing children have that adults may not.

    Larry,
    Are the children born with that childlike faith and humilty? Were do that get that quality?
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Why not just read the answer already given??? I think we have all pretty much agreed that this is describing the nature of faith, the simplicity of it.

    It has nothing to do with age. It is about the type or nature of the faith.

    We already answered this. Why wasn't it good enough for you??

    So I guess he believes that the childlike faith or humility is the one thing children have that adults may not. </font>[/QUOTE]yes that is true. That is what Christ was teaching and it is what human life reveals to us. If you tell a child that Santa Claus exists, they just believe. They believe that reindeer fly. Adults know better. Childlike faith is simple, not sophisticated. They are believers and total trusters. Salvation requires simple faith and total trust.

    It is a part of social immaturity. They are not "wise" to the world. They are not skeptics.

    I am not sure what you are finding hard about this. This verse really has nothing to do with CvA. This is off topic; it really should not even be in this forum since it doesn't deal with the issues we are discussing here.
     
  16. Yelsew2

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    Oh, but it does belong here Larry, because the Calvinist INSISTS that one must be regenerated before on can come to faith. That is the basis upon which the doctrine of ELECTION stands! So what is different in a child that makes the child, in it's natural condition, acceptable to Jesus?
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    Yelsew,

    You gave the right answer the first time. Now you say this???? A child, in its natural condition is not acceptable to Jesus. A child in its natural condition is a sinner. What Christ is talking about is the simple trusting nature of a child. Many people are "too smart" to believe. A child is not. That is what this picture that Christ is drawing is.

    You gave the right answer the first time. Don't backtrack on it now.

    This passage is about the type of trust/faith that is saving faith. It is not about election in the least.

    Furthermore, regeneration preceding faith is not the basis on which election stands. Election stands on teh basis of God's revelation. It is not logically prior to regeneration; it is logically and chronologically subsequent to election. Theology is the basis of election. God has revealed it; therefore, it is true.
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Everyone;
    I believe what is being related here is none other than trust. One has to accept the fact that in order to be saved we first have to trust God to save us. That trust is child like. We accept Christ as the words says and we are saved. Election doesn't matter,Depravity doesn't matter all of our doctrines do not matter as long as we trust and believe in Christ, we are saved. Good post Skandelon
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  19. Yelsew2

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    No backtracking here, you simply missunderstand!

    "Suffer the little children to come unto me". There is something innocent about little children that has nothing whatever to do with election, the strongfort of Calvinism, or "Total Depravity", the crutch of Calvinism.

    Jesus' beckoning of the little children refutes Election but you can't see that because you refuse to see the truth in it.

    The question Slandelon asks is so very important for Calvinists to answer honestly, because as I said in my last post, the Calvinist doctrine of Election stands on regeneration prior to faith, in otherwords, one cannot come to faith unless one's spirit is made able to do so, and that is by regeneration.

    God is revealed in Atonement, but you refuse to acknowledge that Jesus death on the cross covers all the sins of all the world for all times. You believe that the atonement is only for the "Elect".

    God is revealed in HIS grace (mercy) which covers all mankind for all the time that God continues to behave in accordance with HIS grace. You however seem to think that God's grace is a gift given only to the elect!
     
  20. Yelsew2

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    What you seem to miss ILUVLIGHT is that according to the doctrine of "total depravity", one does not have the ability or desire to trust God.

    Likewise under the doctrine of election, only those who are foreordained by God are "regenerated" so they are able to trust in God.

    Both of those doctrines are refuted in the words of Jesus the Christ, who not only beckons the little one's to Him, but admonishes adults that they cannot come unless they come in the manner of a little child.

    If one is totally depraved, even in the womb, then there is no innocence in children.

    If one must be regenerated before one can trust in God, then little children must likewise be regenerated before they can come to Jesus.

    Do you not see the oxymoronic situation that Calvinism espouses?
     

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