Calvinists have a "higher" view of mankind than Non-Calvinists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jan 1, 2012.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Non-Calvinists teach that unbelieving men reject God despite God's love and gracious provisions, making those who remain in unbelief truly horrible, deserving of condemnation and inexcusable for their rebellion.

    Calvinists, on the other hand, teach that unbelievers are unbelievers because God doesn't really 'love' them or desire them to come to faith thus He refuses to grant them faith. This gives unbelievers the perfect excuse for their unbelief. What better excuse is there for an unbeliever than, "God didn't grant me faith?"

    So, which is worse? Someone who has everything they need to believe but chooses not to do...who rebells despite God's loving provisions and gracious invitation, ORRRR someone who rebells because he was born that way and wasn't provided all that was needed to believe?

    The first is obviously much worse than the second, yet Calvinists are constantly accusing non-Calvinists of having too high of a view of man??? It seems as if they are the ones elevating the view of man above what scriptures actually teach.
     
    #1 Skandelon, Jan 1, 2012
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  2. jbh28

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    Calvinists do believe this.
     
  3. plain_n_simple

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    John Calvin should not even be an issue, he murdered a man when he rejected his writings. That is not the spirit or mind of Christ. Good fruit does not come from a bad tree. Saying someone is "non-calvinist" gives a misplaced sense of acknowlegement to John Calvin. Calvins teachings deserve nothing but exposure to his demon-inspired take on God's holy word. As a follower of Jesus (notice I did not say non-calvinist) I do not condemn anyone because of their rejection of Christ.

    [snipped - unnecessarily inflammatory]
     
    #3 plain_n_simple, Jan 1, 2012
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  4. Winman

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    Yes, Calvinists believe men are born with a sinful nature through no fault or choice on their part and are unable to do anything but reject God's grace. Their sin is simply existing.
     
  5. Skandelon

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    Calvinists may claim to affirm "that unbelieving men reject God despite God's love and gracious provisions," but to do so they must redefine "love and gracious provision" to include God's common grace toward those he didn't choose. Regardless, the real saving LOVE that GRACIOUSLY provides what is necessary for salvation is reserved for the elect alone within the Calvinistic system, it is this LOVE and GRACE to which I'm referring, not the redefined lessor versions of 'love and grace' used to placate objections.
     
  6. Skandelon

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    The labels of "Calvinist", "Arminian, or "non-Calvinist" are in reference to a particular theological soteriology, and should not be confused with a blanket affirmation of any one individual (as many different individuals have held to these differing views throughout history). Thus, such a charge is misplaced.
     
  7. 12strings

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  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Wa...wa...what, shakes head, rather where did you get the part about Calvinists? :confused:
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Im a Calvinist.....bluntly, are you questioning my salvation .....give me a yes or a no answer to this Plain & Simple (live up to your moniker)
     
  10. jbh28

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    That's not even close to true. Go read some history before making statements like this.

    1. Calvin was not in charge.
    2. It wasn't over his writing.
    3. Calvin tried to change the death to a different, less painful death, but was unable to get that because he wasn't in charge.

    Calvinist doesn't in any way mean a follower of John Calvin. A "non-calvinist" would be you and anyone that doesn't believe the doctrines commonly known as "Calvinism."
     
  11. jbh28

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    No, they did choose because that's all they wanted to do. What you are seem to be implying(correct me if I'm wrong) is that Calvinist believe men sin against their will.
     
  12. plain_n_simple

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    Point noted, thank you.
     
  13. Winman

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    Let's say you approach a corpse. You tell the corpse that he can stand up alive, or choose to continue to lie there dead. You have offered the corpse a choice. Can the corpse choose?

    This is exactly how many Calvinists view the unelect. They often directly say the spiritually dead are like a corpse.

    You will counter that they could choose, but they can only choose death. If this is so, then they are not a corpse, because a corpse can make no choice at all, to be either dead or alive.

    You reject the corpse analogy. They can make choices, but they will always choose their desire, and their desire will always be against God. But where do the scriptures say this? It is one thing to say man does not desire or seek God, it is quite another to say man is not ABLE to desire or seek God. Do the scriptures say man is not ABLE to desire God?

    What of Cornelius? The scriptures say he feared God, and prayed always. But he was not saved, neither did he have the Holy Spirit. God heard his prayers and sent an angel to him. The angel told Cornelius to send for Peter. Was Cornelius able to obey? So, where do the scriptures say or show a man is not able to desire, believe, or obey God?
     
    #13 Winman, Jan 1, 2012
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  14. OldRegular

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    It is not within your job description to condemn anyone. That task belongs to God and God alone.
     
  15. plain_n_simple

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    I did not say it was my job. Response to OP.
     
  16. plain_n_simple

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    You question yourself. I did not. If you worry about what another says about your salvation, you might not be so firm in your belief. It's that plain and simple.
     
    #16 plain_n_simple, Jan 1, 2012
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  17. Skandelon

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    See post #5 as I replied to this claim there...

    They use more placating words, but it amounts to the same. (notice my edit remarks regarding "really" where I anticipated this very objection)

    Like I said, he doesn't REALLY will them to come to Him...he doesn't give them what they need to believe and thus they have the perfect excuse for their unbelief. That was my contention and your qualification affords the same contention.

    Job worshipped God. Abraham worshipped God. Rahab worshipped God. I could go on and on.

    Paul is NOT saying that no one worships God. He is saying that no one is righteous according to the demands of the law. All have fallen short. But those who are REALLY righteous are so by faith. "Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness." So, on the one hand Paul claims that 'no one is righteous, no not one' and in the next chapter says that Abraham was righteous. How can that be? Read Romans 3:20-21 and you will see the shift from the law of righteousness to righteousness by faith. So, men are without excuse because they have everything they need to acknowledge God by faith. There is nothing preventing anyone from acknowledging God as God. If there was then they would have a defense.

    I'm fine discussing the headship of Adam over all mankind if you are willing to acknowledge the headship of Christ over all those same people. You want Adam to represent all mankind in his rebellion without having Christ represent all mankind in his provision, which is not biblical. (that is unless lean more toward being a four pointer)

    Think about this. You are making my point. In our justice system, we declare men "NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY." That means we deem these people in our society who have no control over the way they behave as 'not as guilty' as those who willfully and purposefully choose to commit a crime. In the Calvinistic system, unbelievers are more like those who are 'insane' in that they are unable to do otherwise, where as in the non-cal system they are more like those who commit a premeditated crime.
     
  18. 12strings

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  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Convoluted response. Typical of those who set out to demean others.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Convoluted response. Typical of those who set out to demean others.
     

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