Calvinists help me understand

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by evangelist6589, Aug 3, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    105
    Just finished my lesson on Jonah and it went well despite only getting through half my outline. Anyways this is one book that has me confused as if God only granted faith and repentance to the elect why did God have compassion on Nineveh, on the 120,000 children and everyone else? It seems as if Gods love flows to all elect and non elect indeed but his special love for the elect. Perhaps I got confused because I did not read any Calvinist commentaries on Jonah other than the ESV SB.

    I mean God chooses to relent from his judgment because of the FREE WILL of the people. Would this not flow from the outline of the book Chosen but Free? Hmm.....
     
    #1 evangelist6589, Aug 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2014
  2. Don

    Don
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    10,550
    Likes Received:
    213
    Why don't you move this to the Cavinist section of the board?
     
  3. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

    Well, what do you know? Someone is beginning to see that the scriptures do not agree with Calvinism. Who'd have thought such a thing?

    Amazing how when you stop reading Reformed works only and start reading the Bible your perspective changes.

    I can't wait to hear how the Calvinists answer your question John.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    God must ordain slow folks who cannot understand that such threads on "Theology" are not allowed? How can that be?

    WE HAVE A CALVINISM DEBATE FORUM for those who want to beat their heads against a wall, make man sovereign or God a puppet-master. Your call but NOT HERE.

    MOVED by a sovereign intelligent jack-booted thug of an Administrator.

    :BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
     
  5. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    'Slow folks' words were uncalled for. You're an admin, please act accordingly....
     
  6. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    The need for being moved is evident. The "need" for you to get your "digs" is.....Not.
     
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

    Among other unnecessary and uncalled for "digs".
     
  8. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,247
    Likes Received:
    76
    I'm still wondering where are all the Calvinists to comfort John in his dilemma.

    I would think that they should be beating down the door for the opportunity to highlight how their philosophy gives an answer.

    hello?hello?hello?hello?
     
  9. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    I have no idea what your question is.
     
  10. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Act_7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
     
  11. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    60
    Because Calvinism is a falsehood.
     
  12. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,247
    Likes Received:
    76
    That's what I'd say, too.
     
  13. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,247
    Likes Received:
    76
    I'll be serious now, just in case you really didn't understand what John was asking....

    Now, I'm going to refrain from anything inflammatory, and ask from John's Calvinist perspective.....


    considering that repentance and faith are the result of God's effectual calling and regenerating grace,

    why does it appear that God's grace toward Nineva came AFTER they repented?
     
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    First, and foremost, Jonah is not about the People of Nineveh. In the storyline of the text they are secondary, they (along with the sailors) serve as a counterpoint to Jonah.

    The Book of Jonah is primarily about God and His grace.

    Ironically, Jonah--the Prophet of God--refuses to do God's will. He doesn't acknowledge God as he should, but the sailors and the Ninevites wind up doing so.

    Secondly, what Jonah preaches to Nineveh can hardly be called a "gospel." He preaches "forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown," which is the ancient-day equivalent of "God hates [email protected].." There is no good news in Jonah's message, there is no revealing of God to them--His grace and His mercy, and Jonah's message is intended to leave Nineveh in darkness... (if you doubt this then answer why he went up onto the plan to watch the destruction he thought was coming...).

    Up until the very end of the book, Jonah is defiant. In the beginning of the book he's actively defiant, and in the end of the book he's passive-aggressively defiant. But, he is defiant nonetheless.

    The book, ultimately, leaves us to answer why the Ninevites repented. They were preached a deficient, Yahweh-absent "gospel," why or how did they repent? In the end, their repentance is not viewed as salvific; it is only a temporary stay of God's judgment (read the history of Assyria).

    Does God have mercy on the People of Nineveh? Yes. Why? They repent. How do they repent having been given a deficient Gospel? It's only because God can and does use deficient Gospels to change people. But, it isn't the Gospel that is the thing here (for there was no "good news"), it's God's grace in bringing repentance to Nineveh. Why did God desire to show compassion on a city (and a nation, really) that is known to be gruesomely horrible? To demonstrate to Jonah that salvation isn't ultimately limited to Israel, that God can and does save people outside of Israel. Also, we see that God has compassion on sinners.

    The entire episode reminds us that God will have mercy on those whom He chooses to have mercy on and that He will have compassion on those whom He will have compassion on. And, at times, He will do so through our efforts and, at other times, He will do so in spite of our efforts.

    The Archangel
     
  15. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Alright John, has it been properly explained to you how a whole city of unregenerate people repented?
     
  16. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Or..........you could take it as you read it John. It isn't hard to understand. What does the Spirit teach you? Do you need all of the above explaining away? Or should we just take Jonah at God's Word?
     
  17. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Calvinism insist that when the Holy Spirit engages the unregenerate He cannot be resisted (I in TULIP). I'll go with the scripture on this one.
     
  18. The Archangel

    The Archangel
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    For the record: My name is not "John."

    And, reading the text in its context (both internal and historical) is by no means explaining anything away....

    The Archangel
     
  19. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    "John" was addressing evangelist6589. I believe I seen another poster calling him John. But, you could just take it as you read it also, that would be good! ;-)
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Another solid post that is understood by any who study the book:thumbs:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...