Calvinists: How is God NOT a sinner?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ivon Denosovich, Mar 10, 2010.

  1. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2007
    Messages:
    1,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Full disclosure: not sure how/what I think about the issue of Calvinism. Many of my Southern Baptist friends have recently converted to Reformed Theology and are trying to persuade me to do the same. I've asked my friends the question in the OP and received nothing but "ummm...'s" as a response.

    So, if God is truly omnipotent then isn't He the one doing everything? Including all the bad stuff?

    FWIW, don't take this as an attack: I'm seriously considering 'converting' to Calvinism. Some of it seems to make sense. :wavey:
     
    #1 Ivon Denosovich, Mar 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2010
  2. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    My several years on the BB and reading what the Calvinists here say has convinced me not to be one, and not to want to be one. :tongue3:
     
  3. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,138
    Likes Received:
    364
    So you are saying that if God is all powerful, then He's a sinner? How do you come to that conclusion???
     
  4. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2007
    Messages:
    1,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, forgot to add this: the Op (and this post) will be my last contribution to this thread as I'm not interested in debating/arguing/fighting... for I'm only interested in listening.

    To the Calvinists kind enough to respond, this thread is "yours" now. You have my complete attention. :)
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    I'm with Ann here. I don't get the connection since God is All-Powerful that He's also doing all the bad stuff as you so eloquently put it.

    And who would start a thread and then bail-out so soon?
     
    #5 Rippon, Mar 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2010
  6. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,875
    Likes Received:
    109
    You might do a search on the POE (Problem of Evil) and "hard determinism"...
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Ro 9:14
     
  8. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    To answer your last question, whoever wishes to do so. If someone wants to start a thread then bail, as long as it is within the rules of the forum, then that is their right. What you think of it is a mute point.

    Now, getting back to the op, God is not a sinner regardless of which side you believe about Calvinism. To the author of this thread, I cannot blame you for not wanting to get into this debate, as there are some extremely rude posters on both sides. This subject and Bible versions bring out the worst in posters.
     
  9. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not a Calvinist, but this is exactly the right answer. Bible believing, Non-Calvinists believe in the God's omnipotence, if they don't they are not Bible believers.
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    It's a deaf point?:smilewinkgrin:

    I see you have reverted to your old ways SN.
     
  11. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Old ways or new ways as you call them, there is no excuse for the lack of respect you show posters that do not agree with your views. Any person of average intelligence can discuss an issue in a civil manner.
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Please R-E-A-D posts, before commenting. Slow down, breathe, then form thoughts, finally type a reasonable entry.

    So you would be of the extra-intelligent category or ...?
     
  13. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, as a matter of fact, I am quite average in that category, but then again, it is a step above you.
     
  14. Havensdad

    Havensdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmm. No one wants to address the question: so I guess I will. I must preface this by saying I am rather "soft" Calvinist (I hate that word; I am a Christian, not a Calvinist).

    This is from a recent paper I wrote, regarding this subject. Hope it helps.

     
  15. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    The problem with this view is that the scriptures clearly show that some things happen that are not decreed by God. This is shown several times in Jeremiah.

    Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

    Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

    Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

    Here the Jews were sacrificing their children to false gods, and God says he never commanded or spoke this, neither did it come into his heart or mind.

    So the scriptures do not teach that God is controlling every little detail of what happens.

    The scriptures also speak of "chance" many times which would not be possible if all events were decreed beforehand.

    Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
     
    #15 Winman, Mar 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2010
  16. Havensdad

    Havensdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right back at'cha, bro...

    Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

    This statement says plainly that nothing happens that is not according to God's will.

    However, you are ripping those scriptures out of context. Clearly, all that Jeremiah 19 is saying, was that these things had never been commanded to be done. God is not saying that He was ignorant of such things ("nor came it into my mind"), and likewise, He is not saying that he did not give an eternal decree that such would take place. He is just saying "I never told you to do this."

    Absolutely nothing can happen, that God does not decree. God is not in heaven, wringing His hands, hoping that everything turns out allright.

    BTW: The OP specifically said he wanted explanations from Calvinists: not an argument. Get your own thread.
     
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since the OP author has bailed can I ask a follow up question for further clarity?

    I'm going to whether you want me to or not: :)

    If God is all powerful and is IN CONTROL over all things and nothing that exists does so apart from Him, then where does the evil thought of raping and murdering a child originate? (I choose the most heinous example to illustrate the gravity of the question)

    If God decrees all things as in "predetermining" them this is a real issue, but if by "decree" the Calvinist simply means that God "permits" it, then the question comes as to the origination of such a sinful thought or motive. What caused that thought?

    If someone or something other than God originated that thought then is God still omnipotent in the true sense of the word? Is God really "in control" over all things if there is a thought that originates outside his causing it? If so, how? How can someone be in complete control if their are other beings who have the power of original thought and actions?
     
  18. Havensdad

    Havensdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I arrange your circumstances, in such a way as to cause you to think something evil, you are fully responsible for it, yet that thought has been fully brought about by me.
     
  19. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Absolutism rears its head again.

    Let me see, since God is Omnipotent, and He is my creator, then if I blow bad air as a result of (1) something I ate, (2) some illness in me, (3) having slept with my mouth open and gulping in all those air, then it is God who caused me to expel that foul-smelling air because He is the One who created me, and the system by which I exist, right ?

    Now, if I am sitting by myself in a park, and a drug addict comes by in need of a fix but no money for it, and sees me, and brandishes a knife at me, and I grab the knife hand and do an Ippon Seinagi or one handed shoulder throw and in the process break his hip bone when he lands that is going to be God's fault because in His Omnipotence He ordered my life and I learned Judo as part of that ordering, and it is also God's fault with regards to the other party because He is Omnipotent and could have ordered the other party's life another way so that he doesn't become an addict needing a fix and we didn't have to meet on that certain date and time and place and I wouldn't have broken his hip and he could've been a college graduate with a high paying job somewhere else.

    I think the Arabs have a word for it: KISMET ?
     
  20. olegig

    olegig
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    0
    The first thing that came into my head was if you are considering 'converting' to something, I am wondering what you are 'converting' from.
    The only Biblical conversion I know of is from lost to saved.

    IMO when considering any theology, be it post-millennialism, pre-millennialism, dispensationalism, covenant theologyism, Replacement theologyism, Calvinism, etc...one should look to the implications of the belief system.
    How does the "ism", taken in whole, apply and agree with the whole body of scripture.

    All the "isms" as with most all denominations have a basis in scripture. The proponents of each can give scriptural reference and make sound cases for each of their chosen belief systems.

    IMO ones chosen "ism" or theology should agree with the whole body of scripture as the scripture stands and not just some passages.
    Therefore in the end the final judgement is yours and yours alone.
     

Share This Page

Loading...