Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

So explain the difference between God drawing someone and God calling someone and the text ,if any, you use to make that distinction.

 

Brother Pinoy: I believe the Gospel was preached first in Genesis 3:15, and was further expounded in various ways throughout history. As far as the length and breadth of the Gospel's publication, I don't think it was then or is presently as limited as we often assume, but it is ultimately God's prerogative as to where it goes and where it doesn't go.

Assuming that your questions arise from your doctrine of salvation without means, I will add this: While it can be proven that God sometimes works without and even against means, I'm not convinced that God ever works salvifically without means. I don't think God would save someone without the Gospel given that he proclaimed the Gospel as "the power of God unto salvation".

I think the PB practice of splitting salvation into eternal and temporal aspects is a hermeneutic interpretation necessitated by the defense of salvation without means.

In spite of my differences with my BP brethren, I still love them and appreciate much of what they stand for.

 

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Is Jesus a universalist?
​

 

The dreaded double post!

mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

HankD (can you guess I'm a former Catholic?)

 

1. I will ask you the same question, what is the difference between God "drawing" someone and God "calling" someone?

2. Does the "if" make it conditional?

 

To the first question concerning the difference bewteen "drawing" and "calling": This question does not address the real issue, the word used was "draw" not "call" in both the questions concerning universalism.

If we are going to obliquely accuse soemone of being a "universalist" because of the verse alluded to by the statement

Then that criteria begs the question "Is Jesus a universalist" because He is the one who said in John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The second question about the condition, yes when He made the statement it was conditioned upon His crucifixion.

It has been accomplished and therefore this passage (John 12:32) of Scripture is being fulfilled as we speak.


HankD

 

So, are you saying that everone whom God calls will obey?


And if so, IF I were to show you verses that specifically state that God called some and they did not obey and or that they could potentially NOT obey - would you change your stance?

 

Paul reiterates the passage of Prov 1 in Rom 10, most specifically verse 24 of Proverbs in Romans 10:21:

Any time God is calling men from darkness to light, from error to truth, or righteousness from unrighteousness you have God drawing men. His drawing and calling are the same thing. Even the writer of Hebrews 3 (I personally believe it was Paul) :

Also in Rom 10:8 (which is a direct quote of Duet 30:10-14-20) Paul is again illistrating the choice set before them by God Himself. In Duet God through Moses is declaring to them a choice and is pleading to 'choose life'. Paul also uses this when speaking in Rom 10 to establish his position - that being God is calling/drawing them unto Himself - believe and be saved, do not reject Him as Israel did whom He loved and called.

And then you have the passage of 2 Thes 2:10-12 which speaks of the followers of the Anti-Christ who were given the truth that they might be saved (vs 10) but chose not to receive it and for THAT reason God gave them over to their sin

Is God really damning them because He (God) would not allow them to believe
Or
Because He called/drew them to the truth to them (no one can know any spiritual truth unless God reveal it) that could save them and yet they rejected it?

This is seen also in Rom 1.

 

Actaully, I think I am in the wrong here. Though I do not agree with my Calvinist brethren on 'some' things, you came here specifically asking Calvinists for more info and I answered a post in a way that is not in line with your OP nor does it add to that which you are seeking for more info on.

My appologies. Search out what the Lord will have you to know. Just do not let your studies be one sided. Study all the points and let God lead you to truth. He leads some toward Calvinism and others away from it. And yes, we each have our personal testimonies of "through honest and prayerful study God led me this way". Be confident in your own mind that which the Lord has shown you but also do not be so unmovable that no matter what truth is presented you will not budge.

 

Although Allan and I see this issue differently, I concur in his advice. Be careful to let the scriptures speak for themselves. Be careful not to draw a conclusion, then go looking for scriptures that support it, or filter those scriptures through your conclusion.

If you live long enough you will change your view on some subjects. It may be traumatic to come to the conclusion that what you thought was right no longer can stand the test. On some issues, I consider them settled. On others, the best I can say is, this is where I am today. I wasn't there yesterday and I may not be there tomorrow.

 

"[The woman in Luke 13] was made straight we are told, and that at once. Now, what I want you to notice is this, that she must have lifted herself up—that was her own act and deed. No pressure or force was put upon her, she lifted up herself; and yet she was "made straight." She was passive in so much as a miracle was wrought upon her, but she was active too, and, being enabled, she lifted up herself. What a wonderful meeting there is here of the active and the passive in the salvation of men. The Arminian says to the sinner, "Now, sinner, you are a responsible being; you must do this and that." The Calvinist says, "Truly, sinner, you are responsible enough, but you are also unable to do anything of yourself. God must work in you both to will and to do." What shall we do with these two teachers? They fell to fighting, a hundred years ago, most frightfully. We will not let them fight now, but what shall we do with them? We will let both speak, and believe what is true in both their testimonies." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

""To as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to as many as believed on his name"; but the reception must come first. And you cannot have this witness apart from faith, because the Holy Ghost never sets his seal to a blank sheet of paper. There must first of all be the writing of faith upon the heart, and then the Spirit of God puts his attesting seal thereto. Would you have God the Holy Ghost witness to a falsehood? And yet it would be witnessing to a lie if he gave an inner witness of salvation to a man who is still an unbeliever, and who consequently is condemned already. If you refuse to believe God's word how can you think that the Spirit will bear witness of anything in you except it be to your condemnation? There must be faith going before, and then the witness will follow after." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I am not as well spoken as some here, though. Bear with me

I'll give you an analogy. My son wants to see a movie. I give him a choice of a few to see. Since he's not 16, I drive him and his friend to the theater, give him money for tickets and popcorn, and pick him up when it is over. I was completely sovereign over his whole moviegoing experience, while he freely chose which movie he wanted to see (remember, a choice involves 2 or more options...not one like calvinism teaches).

Obedience is not forced. He has determined those who come to Him in faith are saved.

You start with a false presuppostion that all have not had the Truth presented at some point. What does Romans 1 say? Romans 3?

First thing I do is put it into the proper context. Romans 9 - 11 is dealing with God's plan for Israel, not personal salvation as is often taught. Knowing this context, the text in qustion is dealing with God's sovereign choice of one nation over another. Remember, Genesis 25:23 states "there are two nations in your womb"

Fist, Romans 1 states there are two kinds of people...those who have accepted the Truth, and those who rejected the Truth. That is more than enough "chance". There is no group in between without ever having the chance.
Second, God's love and God's justice are not interwoven. God is also righteous. Does He love all men? Yes, Scripture states just that. It's not God's plan that they must not be born again, as 2 Peter 3:9 attests to. Is He just for allowing them to die in their sins? Absolutely, because they rejected Him.

 

Hi Zrs6v4;
This is how Salvation was for me;
Choice of whether to be saved or not isn't one that where we just choose to be saved and then go out and get saved. We are first drawn or called. We then hear about Christ, learning about Him first. Being drawn isn't a choice but listening may be. Many are called but few are chosen. We do not choose Christ we are chosen for Christ.
Salvations depends on you being convinced of the truth of Jesus Christ there by creating faith inside of us. Then comes conviction this happens by learning we are sinners and we feel the conviction of it. Conviction tears at us so much that it literally drives us to our knees in submission to the righteousness of God.
There is nothing right about us with out God and when we see that is true is when conviction takes over.
Salvation is never forced though explanations may seem that way. All through the process of Salvation our only choice is to rebel against it. Rebellion is the choice we can make to stop the process although with out rebellion there is no resistance. With out resistance we accept Christ as our Savior. Salvation is all of God. Man's only part in his own Salvation is our submission to the righteousness of God. Submission is giving up the rebellion our fight against Him.
MB