Can a Christian sin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Aug 12, 2008.

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  1. steaver

    steaver
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    .......continuing from the thread "Can a dead body sin".

    Let us stay on this very topic since there is much that was left unanswered. You may bring forward any quotes from the "Can a dead body sin" thread.

    HP brought up the issue of what he called "sinning believers" which I took to mean a believer who is wallowing in sin without a care for the shame he is putting on Christ. THIS IS NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. If you want to talk about these kind of so called Christians feel free to begin a new thread on this.

    This thread will be specifically for addressing whether or not a Christain can commit a sin, ANY SIN, or not.

    Brother Bob's position is that a Christian cannot commit any sin that violates God's law, however, a Christian can commit other sin. If you agree with this please support it with scripture. If you disagree with this then please oppose it with scripture.

    To begin we can define what sin is. The only way we can do this is by scripture.

    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    I have found no other definition for sin in the scriptures.

    BBob brought up the fact that there is sin unto death and sin not unto death. This is true for scripture supports this statement....

    1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    The key phrase in this verse is "unto death". I believe BBob believes this to mean eternal death or both together. He can correct me if I am wrong. I believe it means physical death only, but this really isn't the OP topic.

    What I want to know from BBob, or supporters of his view, is what sin does he see FROM SCRIPTURE that a Christian could possibly commit that is not in violation of the law?

    God Bless! :jesus:
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    Not visit the sick.

    Fail to assemble thyselves together.

    Let the poor go hungry even though you could help.

    Fail to walk like a Christian.

    Open your mouth, when you should keep it shut.

    Anything that is not Christlike.

    Anything that is not of faith, is sin.

    Did you give thanks when you eat your breakfast, or lunch??

    Wanted to show you how you crossed yourself and so did Amy.

    If they are unbelievers:

    The unrighteous that Paul refers to in verse 9 are unbelievers.

    Then, those who defrauded and took their brother to law, were not Christians to begin with. That destroys your whole point. You yourself destroyed your argument.

    Also, Paul is plainly saying here that the one defrauded because he would not suffer the defraud, becomes a defrauder also. He was not guilty of anything until he took his brother to court. How does that make him a defrauder?? It is as plain as the nose on your face, yet you do not understand. How can I argue a point that you can't see, when its so plain.

    BBob,
     
    #2 Brother Bob, Aug 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2008
  3. DHK

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    So these are "sanctified sins"? How pious of you!
    What does James say?

    James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
    --According to this verse you don't have "pure religion."
    You don't believe that "not" visiting the sick, (the fatherless and widows in their affliction ) is a sin of any consequence. It is not really that important to God. Yet the Lord says: that is what constitutes "pure religion." It is the only place in the Bible where he defines "pure religion." But to you it is not important.

    Secondly it is not Christlike to commit adultery or break anyone of the Ten Commandments. Do you think Christ would forgive you if you did? But you say He would forgive you if you were not Christlike?? That is a certain contradiction wouldn't you say. There is a lot of wiggleworm there.

    Those in 1Cor.6:1-8 are believers. To say that they are not is to deny the Bible. The whole issue that Paul is addressing is Christians taking other Christians to court. You have to be blind not to see that. He was speaking to the saved.
    From verse nine onward there is another topic that is addressed that has nothing to do with verses 1-8. In this you are not rightly dividing the word of truth. To take an extreme example I can say that because Revelation follows Genesis that proves that the woman in Revelation in Rev.12 is the same as the woman in Genesis two. After all they are both women, and Revelation does follow Genesis. This is the exact logic that you are using. You are taking Scripture out of context, avoiding natural breaks and paragraph divisions, changes in topics, all to fit your own strange ideology.
    That has nothing to do with verses 1-8. Do you like to butcher the Bible? Paul, with verse nine, has gone to a different topic.
    That is your argument and it is self destructive to you. Christians can and do sin. This was the entire purpose of the First Epistle of Corinthians--to correct the wrongs and give advice to sinning believers.
    --The immoral believer in chapter five.
    --The defrauding believers in chapter six.
    --The believers that abused the Lord's table in chapter 11, came to the Lord's Table drunk. God killed some of them for it.
    --The believers that denied the resurrection in chapter 15.
    --The believers that caused divisions in the church in chapter one.
    --The believers that are called "carnal believers" in chapter three.

    The list goes on Bob. These believers had faults, sinful practices. Some of them even kept idolatrous practices sinking back into paganism.

    1 Corinthians 12:2-3 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
    --Some of them had been calling Jesus accursed, without realizing it (I believe in another language that they didn't understand--the gift of tongues). But it was not by the spirit of God. It was by another spirit from their pagan background.

    Immorality, fornication, defrauding one another, And yet they were Christians--all of them.

    How? Because you are making things up. You are sticking to a false ideology that you won't give up. You are denying the Bible when it says opposite to what you claim. You don't want to believe what it says. That is why. One verse refutes all of what you say. Because you refuse to even try to understand, you refuse to believe the Scriptures. Here it is.

    1 Corinthians 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

    1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
    --Verse six says brother goes with (or against) brother to the court of unbelievers. That is as plain as can be in giving the setting. Christians were suing each other. They were both involved.
    --Verse 8 "Nay YE do wrong.
    YE is plural. It refers to both of them, and both of them in the act of defrauding. You either believe it or you don't. If you don't believe it, it is a simple rejection of God's Word over your ideology. Because the statement is so simple and straightforward.
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    You wildly make accusations. Don't you think you are sinning when you wildly accuse someone of something, when its not true. What wrong with you.

    I stated because Paul continued to say the unrighteous would not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven was Paul saying the people who went to court, were not of the unrighteous. You first attacked that, and now you are accusing me of saying these people were unrighteous.
    I simply said, if they were unrighteous, because it is talking about those who went to court, then they were unsaved and it made no difference, but I had previously stated that Paul said you are not of those who are unrighteous and would do no such thing. Go back and read, of course you already know what I said, you just want to make a lie out of it. IMO

    I think you speak with a double tougue DHK; IMO. You speak out of both sides of your mouth, accusing me of taking one position and then accusing me of taking another. I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.IMO

    First you say, that both parties were cheaters. Scripture does not say that. The one side was free and clear, until he went to court, then according to Paul he became guilty. If he was defrauding as you say (cheating), then how come going to court make him a cheater. Now if its "depriving", as I say, then taking his brother to court to deprive him of the property, instead of suffering the loss, would make him guilty. The way you say it is, could never work. IMO

    BBob,
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Aug 12, 2008
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  5. billwald

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    Do it (sin) every day. Don't you all????????
     
  6. rdwhite

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    Well, I know I do, sometimes two or three times a day, on a really bad day it could be a lot more.:eek:

    Praise God I have 1 John 1:9
     
  7. Andre

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    Fair enough, but there is a deadly error rampant in the church which literally places people in danger of ultimate loss (in my opinion). Let me illustrate by example: A person who posts here relatively often basically asserted that "he has an advocate in Jesus and that Jesus will somehow make sure he 'gets in', no matter how he has lived his life".

    I trust I am not alone in seeing this as a dangerous misreading of the gospel. There is no sense anywhere in the scriptures that "accepting Christ", if not evidenced by actual change in behaviour, is enough for final justification. I believe that Paul means what he says in texts like this:

    God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
     
  8. rdwhite

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    Andre, I see and understand what you are getting at, and I agree that there is a lack of holiness among Christians and I believe it is a direct result of modern pop-psych preaching that focuses on self-improvement rather than repentance from sin. I am not sure what you mean by ultimate loss, by I certainly agree there is much to be lost for not living a holy life, and I believe that many a Christian will be shocked as they stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and much if not all there works are consumed in flame.
     
  9. Andre

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    I am saying that I believe the New Testament teaches that a person who claims to have accepted Jesus, yet persists in sin in a chronic manner, will not inherit eternal life at all.
     
  10. DHK

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    And you are simply wrong.
    Here are the facts:

    Paul calls them brothers: saints, believers in Christ, Christians.
    You call them unrighteous that will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
    I believe the Scriptures as written by Paul and inspired by God.

    Paul said they sinned; they defrauded; they cheated.
    You said they did no such thing.
    I believe the Scriptures as written by Paul and inspired by God.

    Why don't you believe the Scriptures Bob?

    1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

    You do wrong.
    You defraud (cheat)
    You defraud your brethren (and he was one of them), according to the following Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

    Nothing is plainer than the truth.
     
  11. steaver

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    Ok BBob, this is a good list to begin from. Now the OP ask for scripture that calls these things you listed sin that is not unto death. Do you have scripture stating this?

    The scripture states that sin is the transgression of the law. Do you agree with this definition?

    Take each act of unrighteousness you listed and post the law that is being transgressed. Unless you have another scripture defining sin as not transgressing the law.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  12. rdwhite

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    If they persist in sin in a chronic manner then I think their claim is false.
     
  13. steaver

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    I think you might be confusing "unto death" with eternal damnation. But nonetheless, I am looking for those scriptures that define those sins that are NOT unto death.

    You keep pointing out what Jesus said, and I already said your are correct, I have no argument to make there, but I am looking for scripture that you reference to teach your congregation which sins are NOT unto death.

    Like you listed "Let the poor go hungry, even though you could help". Where does the scripture say that this is a sin NOT unto death?

    Wouldn't this sin actually be breaking the second greatest commandment Jesus gave?

    Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

    :jesus:
     
  14. steaver

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    Well that is like saying adultery is sin, which of course is a transgression of the law.

    You are correct, that which is not of faith is sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore, what commandment is being transgressed is the question to persue?

    Is lack of faith NOT loving God with all of your heart soul and strength? Could be.

    What we are looking for is where does the scripture state that this sin is NOT unto death? Or this sin is NOT transgressing the law?
     
  15. Andre

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    I agree completely.
     
  16. Reformer

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    Which is the question at hand

    Do Christian's sin Legally?

    or

    Do Christians sin Practically?

    There is a HUGE difference in the two
     
  17. DHK

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    This was a carry-over from another thread.
    It involved a discussion of 1Cor.6:1-8. Were the two individuals spoken of here in sin?

    Verse 9 speaks of the unrighteous, who shall not inherit heaven.

    Is it possible for a Christian to commit an unrighteous act (as described in verses 1-8) and still enter the kingdom of heaven (verse 9)?
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    Well, transgression of the Law is sin, I agree, but that which is not of faith is sin also.

    Your argument is with Jesus. Go tell it to the Master.

    He said there is a sin unto death, and there is a sin not unto death.

    He said, "he that delivereth me unto thee, hath the greater sin. Go tell it to the master.

    Transgression of the Law, will bring forth death.

    Not visiting the sick, will bring forth chastisement. It is not breaking the Law, as far as I understand, but yet is sin.

    Do you think, not visiting the sick, is sin?

    answer this scripture, please?

    1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Jhn 5:14Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

    BBob,
     
    #18 Brother Bob, Aug 12, 2008
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  19. Brother Bob

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    Nay, one of them was not guilty until he took his brother to court.

    1Corth 6:

    7: Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

    Seems to me, if he had of let the church handle it, he was the one defrauded and would of not received any punishment.

    Sometimes I think this is over your head DHK;


    BBob,
     
    #19 Brother Bob, Aug 12, 2008
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  20. Amy.G

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    Any sin is breaking the Law, whether it is the 10 commandments or the two commandments Christ gave.

    Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
    Mat 22:38 "This is the first and great commandment.
    Mat 22:39 "And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
    Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."


    Not visit the sick. This would violate the 1st commandment of the Law and the 2nd commandment of Christ

    Fail to assemble thyselves together. This would violate the 1st commandment of the Law and the 1st commandment of Christ.

    Let the poor go hungry even though you could help. Violates the 1st commandment.

    Fail to walk like a Christian. Violates the 1st commandment and possibly the 2nd (idolotry)

    Open your mouth, when you should keep it shut. Violates the 1st commandment and possibly the 9th (lying, false witness).

    Anything that is not Christlike. Violates the 2nd commandment.

    Anything that is not of faith, is sin. Violates the 1st commandment and possibly the 2nd (idolotry).


    Anything that takes precedent over God is sin.
    "you shall have no other gods before Me"
    "you shall not make for yourself an idol"
    Anything that comes before God is an idol. Selfishness is making an idol of self.

    I think anytime we sin, regardless of the specific sin, we have broken the first commandment, "you shall have no other gods" and "you shall love your God with all your heart, soul and mind". When we sin, we are not loving God, we are loving self.

    Jam 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point], he is guilty of all.

    Even when a sin is something we may perceive as small,we are guilty of breaking the whole law.



    I will say that making this list has really saddened me at how sinful I really am. :tear:
     
    #20 Amy.G, Aug 12, 2008
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