Can a person loose salvation or Once saved always saved?

Don't put words in my mouth. I certainly can't tell who is saved or lost and didn't say I could, unless they are in adultery, or murdering someone or worshiping a cow then I can tell they probably are not saved. If someone came cussing like a sailor then I wouldn't think he was saved either.

Use your head for once, why would God use the Scriptures of corrupt fruit and good fruit unless he was talking about doing good or evil.. It is just plain silly to say otherwise.



And you say this is speaking to teachers? J. Jump; you destroy scripture, you don't discuss it.

Matt.12
32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33: Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

HP: Only God knows the heart of man? Then how can one be sure of his own salvation? How can one even consider losing or not losing that which only God knows?

Your comments sure invalidate all those 'repeat after me prayers' that generally conclude with telling the new candidate that they have been born again, doesn't it.

 

Yeah I'm not a big fan of the repeat after me prayers! I think we have done a TERRIBLE disservice to folks in our evangelism styles. By the grace and mercy of God He has worked through our shortcomings, but we REALLY need to take a look at evangelism today.

But you can know because the Bible makes it real clear believe and you will be saved. So if you believe then you can know you are saved. The good news of salvation by grace through faith is so simple and easy to the praise and glory of God Almighty!

 

Bob are you kidding me. You most certainly are. What in the world are you doing by examining fruit if not determining who is and who is not lost. Come on Bob.

Let me take you back to your original quote.

That is Bob saying I can tell who is a Christian and who is not. If "Bob" sees a "Christian" that commits adultery, murder or stealing then that person according to Bob is not a Christian.

Come on Bob that is exactly what you have been saying and no one is putting words in your mouth.

Again here you are saying that you don't know if someone is saved and then you contradict yourself (although you back off the original statement a bit by adding "probably") in the same sentence.

Bob you can either tell or not. Which is it? The Bible says Bob, Jason, Joe, Mary, Jane, Sue, Jim Bob, Pope So-and-So, Billy Graham whoever you want to put in there can not tell if someone is saved.

You have to ask the right question and if you receive the Biblical answer then you treat that person as if they are a saved individual and go from there.

Bob here you go again with your cherry picking. But who is addressed in Matthew 12? Jesus was speaking again to the religious leaders and teachers of that day.

Now people during that day were certainly capable of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but Jesus is speaking to the leaders and teachers.

By the way I never even brought up Matthew 12 so I don't see how in the world you could accuse me of destroying Scripture when that's not even a passage that I brought up or you brought up until the last post.

 

HP: I thought you said only God can know who is saved. Now you tell me we can know. Are you retracting the statement about God alone knowing?

 

HP: Are you absolutely sure JJ? “Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

 

J Jump;
Surely you would not accuse me of something you are guilty of, like the Pharasees would you?

Here you say only God knows.

Here you say this Scripture is:

Here is the Scriptures and He was talking to His Apostles and teaching them the Beatitudes

Here you say a false prophet is saved, when the scripture says to not bid the God speed.

 

1John 1:9 "IF WE CONFESS our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Acts 2 "REPENT and be baptized"!!

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that men should repent.

Luke 13:3
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Acts 8:22
"Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

Acts 17:30
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Revelation 2:5
'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

Revelation 2:16
'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

 

Romans 3 "ALL have sinned"

Matt 18 - "FORGIVENESS REVOKED" is fully explained.

Romans 1 "Being CAST OUT OF THE VINE OF CHRIST" is fully explained AND "HE is able to graft THEM IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief".

Pretty obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Matthew 7 is part of the sermon on the Mount. It's talking about saved people and their fruit, not using fruit to determine whether they are saved or unsaved. The entire Sermon on the Mount is a Kingdom message to saved people, not a "get saved" message.

 

HP: Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

That sounds like some powerful admonitions to anyone to me, saved or unsaved.

The sermon on the Mount was primarily spoken for the benefit of teaching His disciples. If you are correct, why cannot I assume that this message to ‘saved individuals alone,’ (according to you) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that one can lose their salvation, for one of those spoken to was none other than Judas.

 

Brother Bob always trying to change the subject aren't you. Hey if you want to continue believing what you believe that is on you, but I'm going to call you when you make errouneous statements so that others don't fall into your traps.

If you don't want to defend what you believe that's okay to, but to accuse someone of being a Pharisee is a bit much.

It just cracks me up when people are shown the error of their way and instead of admit it they just start calling people names.

Brother Bob I have not attacked you, and if you feel that way I most certainly apologize, because those weren't my intentions. But as fellow believers were are to help each other when we see each other in error.

I would expect the same of you if you saw me in error, and then I would need to show you in Scripture whether or not something is right or if not then I need to change my view of Scripture.

But we don't just start calling people names because we don't like what they have to say. If you dont' agree with me that's fine. Use Scripture and prove your stance to be right. That has not been the case so far.

 

Again because eternal salvation is not the context of the message. The message was being spoken to people that were already eternally saved and that issue was really a non-issue as far as God was concerned. He had moved on to a different subject. He had moved onto the teaching of the kingdom.

See that's where the "church" misses the mark today. They think eternal salvation is what it is all about. That's why we have so many people stuck in the milk because they can't get beyond eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is not the end, but the beginning. We are supposed to move beyond that and onto maturity. The kingodm message is a message of maturity.

The Bible is not written to unsaved people. It's not even primarily about unsaved people. The Bible is written to people that are spiritually alive to understand how to mature in the faith and what the purpose is for maturing in the faith.

Eternal salvation is not addressed much at all because it is a simple message that if you believe you are saved. The pathway to maturity is not as simple and that's why there are so many books about how to get from the milk to the strong meat. And that's why there are so many admonishments, encouragments, commandments and such because moving onto maturity in the faith is not something that is easy. We have three enemies that are at war against us in this pursuit. A good number of Christians aren't even in the battle, because they don't even know they are supposed to be fighting.

 

JJ, if one states that he is not saved, can you tell me if he is saved or not? (Careful now, we don’t desire to play God.)

 

I guess in your theology, that means David was not saved?? Or can you get by only doing two out of three?

Ed

 

​

HP: I know you are asking Brother Bob, but may I offer this? God has locked us in to faith in this world as the means by which we hold our salvation. Of a truth, God knows the beginning from the end, but He does not give us that absolute knowledge He possesses. Rather than to just say one has lost his salvation, or he wasn’t saved at the time, why not just say that he could not have had a full assurance of his final standing before the Lord while in possession of an evil conscience and while our final standing is held by faith?

God has not so designed ones assurance of salvation to testify positively of our final standing with Him when our conscience testifies to us of present sin we have yet to repent and turn from. The key is to find that place of consistent obedience through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, that our walk remains consistently obedient and the light of our assurance burns consistently bright and glorious.

 

No one can know at any time with 100% accuracy whether someone is saved or not. If someone admits to not being saved then I would treat them as an unbeliever and all the Holy Spirit to use me as a vessel to witness to that person.

If a person says that they believe in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on behalf of themselves a sinner, that He died in their place then I am going to treat that person as a fellow believer.

 

It is talking about saved and unsaved and the fruit of both. Jesus is teaching His Apostles about the very thing about the fruits of the tree, and as HP said, Judas was among them also, so in reality He was teaching saved and unsaved, unless you believe that Judas was saved.

So, to try and separate them into saved groups and unsaved groups on the mount you have to know who was there and not just call them teachers of that time now wouldn't you?

Ed;
None of the other Apostles knew that Judas was of the devil so how am I supposed to know. You always have to run back to the OT to prove a point don't you? Also Ed;, being you got one out of the three can you get all three?
What about all your neighbors Ed? Can you walk up and down the street and say that one saved and that one is not?

 

quote

You mister goody two shoes alright. I never called you a Pharasee just said you wasn't going to do what they did and accuse

me of something you were guilty of. You don't call anyone anything but in the above statement you accuse me of making

errouneous statements, setting traps but I guess that is ok as long as it is you calling me. If you want to continue calling me

things trying to throw me off subject feel free to do so but I will continue to show your double talk as you put it forth.

 

Brother Bob you are hillarious.