Can All Religions Enjoy Equal Protection?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Aaron, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron
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    This came up in another thread, and that was not the place to argue the point.

    I say no. It's absurd to think otherwise. Islam can only enjoy full freedom in an Islamic state. Judaism can only enjoy full freedom in a Jewish state. And so also, true religion can only enjoy full freedom in a Christian state.

    It is only in a secular state that all religions are treated equally—that is, tolerated to a point. The U.S. is now a secular state. It made the transition from Christianity to Secularism. And now the mind of man is the final say in Law, and all religions, even Christianity, are tolerated only to the degree that they do not offend humanism.

    [edited to make the subject line less confusing]

    [ March 19, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  2. stubbornkelly

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    Complete freedom or equal freedom? Complete freedom? Perhaps not. Equal freedom? Certainly.
     
  3. Aaron

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    My first post is worded somewhat awkwardly. I'm at work. I'll try to word it better a little later tonight.

    However, many Baptists believe that all religions should enjoy full and equal freedom. My point is that is impossible, and was never the intent of the First Amendment.
     
  4. Johnv

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    Equal freedom, yes. Full freedom, only to the point where a person's religion does not interfere with another's civil rights.

    "Full freedom" of a religion can only occur in a nation where that person's religion is the sole sanctioned religion. But where that occurs, oppression of people of different religions is inevitable. For those reasons, I prefer to live in a secular nation that guarantees equal religios freedom. That would be the US.
     
  5. TheOliveBranch

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    People believe in something, and they do it religiously, so they would expect religious freedom in this country, to worship as they please, freely. No, that is not possible. Johnv is correct. You can only worship as freely as the belief the country bases itself on. The US may be looking secular, but it is still based on christianity. If it were in a true secular state, we wouldn't be able to worship freely.
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Islam claims to be the only religion and full right to force their beliefs on "infidels", even to the point of force.

    To give THEM "full freedom" to pursue every part of their religion is to condemn all others (religious/non religious) to slavery to Islam.

    But if we "limit" them - like they cannot have 12 year old girls for brides, cannot have more than one wife, etc - we must recognize that we are limiting religion.

    Out here in Mormon country, we see forced neglect (or simply not mentioning these doctrines publically) of religion so that they might enjoy the other freedoms of the USA.
     
  7. Aaron

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    But where do these rights come from?

    Don't you see that one's religion dictates his politics? Liberty is a Christian doctrine, and one that you think should be entrenched in our laws.

    Try as you might you can't get around it. The first Amendment was designed to protect Protestant Christian freedoms, and to abridge those doctrines that would be destructive to them.

    You can talk all you want, but you don't really believe that all religions should be treated equally under the law.
     
  8. Jim1999

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    In Canada we have relative freedom to exercise our religious beliefs and practices in our own church buildings and family homes. These freedoms, however, must not violate the laws of the land, which are designed to give relative freedom to all.

    For example, it is a violation of law to disrupt a public religious service held in their place of worship.

    I don't think western countries appreciate what great freedoms we enjoy. It is not illegal for me to rap on doors and talk about my religion; to preach on a soapbox on the corner; to pass out religious tracts; to offer prayer wherever I please.

    When a religion steps over the common laws of the land then they are answerable to the state. It may seem precarious, but under a democratic government we will continue to enjoy these freedoms.

    Whilst Canada followed England and the Church of England was the state church in England, Canada never officially had a state church. In fact, Protestantism and Roman Catholicism was equally protected under the Canadian constitution, and now the Bill of Rights, including school systems which are publicly funded by taxation.

    I discovered that I could enter the USA freely if I were called to minister an American Church. I guess it has something to do with the American concept of freedom of religion. I may be worng on the terminology, but Green Card status is granted immediately. Also, I would not come under the "taking the job of an American" position in immigration.

    I also think there is a lot of dispute about whether America was founded on Christianity or Humanism. I tend to think the latter from what I have read.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Aaron

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    Let's say you're right. Humanism is a form of morality. Law that is based on Humanism will command what Humanism says is right and prohibit what Humanism says is wrong.

    The Thirteen Colonies were not united under Humanism. Your literature is suspect. But the United States is now Humanistic. There is no doubt about that.

    But what saith the Scriptures? Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. That includes the king, who must be subject to God's law, the higher power. No Government has the right to be Humanistic. Why? Because God said, "Thou shalt have no other gods beside me."

    Let every soul also includes the majority. This has been said a lot, but it is a truth worth repeating. The United States is not a "pure" democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. Officially we are to recognize not the will of the majority, but the rule of law.

    The question is simply, "Whose law?" According to the Declaration of Independence, Natural Law.
    Note: Laws of Nature here does not mean what we usually assume to be the laws of nature. It means the law of God, as Paul said:
     
  10. Baptist Believer

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    But where do these rights come from?</font>[/QUOTE]These rights come from God. Baptists wanted separation of church and state to protect the God-given right to worship (or not worship) God according to your conscience.

    Yes, clearly. Separation of church and state gives you freedom to practice your religious beliefs through politics as long as they don't violate the rights of others. While their are exceptions to this, for instance the banning of polygamy (restricted Mormon faith and practice) and the banning of the use of peyote in religious worship (restricted some Native American religious practice), the principle has been applied very consistently by the Supreme Court.

    Yes.

    And the freedoms of other religious or nonreligious individuals.

    Not really. While the Supreme Court has ruled against some religious doctrines that violate accepted morality, the First Amendment was clearly designed to protect everyone. It is clear from the history of the era.

    In general, yes I do. I would be opposed to making polygamy legal for Mormons, but I think the laws of the United States should allow for the fullest expression of religious faith as possible under the law. This gets very complex, but it is certainly workable.
     
  11. Baptist Believer

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    Yup. The Supreme Court case "Holy Trinity v. United States (1892)" found that U.S. immigration laws do not restrict a church's right to call a minister of their choosing, even if they come from another country.

    Both Protestant Christianity and Humanism played a large role in the founding of the nation. Religious liberty (through separation of church and state) was something that both groups could strongly support
     
  12. Sherrie

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    I have not read anyone elses answer, I wanted my answer to reflect on my own opinion.

    I do not know how anyone could be free of anything, if they were in any other religion, other than Jesus Christ. He is the only thing that can make any of us free.


    He Set Me Free
    c1939 by Albert E. Brumley

    Once Like a bird In prison I dwelt,
    No freedom from my sorrow I felt,
    But Jesus came and Listened to me
    And Glory to God, He Set me free.

    He set me free, Yes He set me free.
    And He broke the bonds of Prison for me;
    I'm glorybound my Jesus to see,
    For Glory to God, He set me Free.


    Sherrie
     
  13. Sherrie

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    Ok, after now reading everyone elses opinion, I guess the question is not like I thought it was. I Apologize for thinking the question was different than it is.

    Sherrie
     
  14. Ken Rhoades

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    I think that the secular check and balance set up in our constitution reflect a strong connection to the libertine movement of Europe, and it is humanist. I think that our republic has a job to draw law and order that is fair to all in an equal way. As a Christian I am thankful for the kind view that our secular government takes to all religion and when our government attacks any religion ( even the ones I do not like) it is attacking my freedom as a Christian. The only government I wish to see as Christian on this earth is that true government of our Lord Jesus Christ at the start of the Millennium, any time the government becomes a religion all other religions are out. When Jesus Christ takes over - we will not have JW, LDS or Catholics running around any thing but the flames of hell. That is the nature of a government that is joined to any religion. I do not think that any of the ‘white knuckle’ crowd on either side of the isle can fit the bill of eternal right judge of all mankind and I wince at the foolish men that think they know better than GOD. The god of the USA is a ‘$’ part of the moral fiber of our government is free trade and when this is interfered with in the name of any religion the free trade part is lost. We as Christians happen to have the most to offer in trade morals, and many of our Jewish and Christian ethics work very well and are effective in this form of government. But if any one religion (even Baptist) takes over we are doomed as a free people. I do vote and I vote with full prayerful conviction to what I would think God would desire in a closed ballot. But the god of the USA is not the God of my Bible, and I will never bow down or bend my knee to the idolatry that some have come to embrace. As a vet I put my backside on the line so all Americans could be free, freedom cost allot, I will not stand by silent as the rumblings of fascism try to break that chain of freedom set up by our constitution. But when Jesus Christ my King and eternal Lord takes over, the strange of the false god of money will bow to the eternal God and King JESUS!

    Ken &gt;&lt;KJV&gt;
     
  15. A.J.Armitage

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    And so also, true religion can only enjoy full freedom in a Christian state.

    What is meant by "a Christian state"?
     
  16. LadyEagle

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    I agree with you, Aaron. One need only to read the Mayflower Compact, which I've posted before, which no one on the other side wants to take seriously. :(
     
  17. Baptist Believer

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    The Mayflower Compact is not a foundation of our current government system. It is no more relevant than the "Articles of Confederation" that predated our Constitution.

    The basis of our government is the Constitution of the United States.
     
  18. Johnv

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    The first Amendment was designed to protect Protestant Christian freedoms, and to abridge those doctrines that would be destructive to them.

    Then Catholicism, Mormonism, and Judaism aren't protected?? I think not. If a protestant doctrine infterferes with a Jew's religious liberties, the first amendment protects the Jew.

    And so also, true religion can only enjoy full freedom in a Christian state.
    Whose Christianity? Baptist? Methodist? Presbyterian? To what point? Imagine where a Lutheran is forbidden from infant baptism, because Baptists don't adhere to it.
     
  19. LadyEagle

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    Baptist Believer, you & I will always have a difference of opinion on that.

    As well as the fact that our present government and rulings of the courts in the last 50 or so years is in no way the vision our Founding Fathers had for our country.

    They would turn over in their graves if they knew how this Republic is being run now. :(
     
  20. LadyEagle

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    Here's an interesting piece re: Separation of Church & State and France:

    http://www.meforum.org/comments/pipes/2156

    RE: France. Supposedly France has separation of church & state. However, recently heard the French Government is considering funding of mosques. Will try to find source later.
     

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