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Can anybody prove?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Chemnitz, Jul 22, 2002.

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  1. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Chem:
    I have a personal library and one at the congregation where I preach. I do not have to use a commentary, or a study Bible to know the truth. The rational mind may: Search, Acts 17:11, Examine IICor. 13:5, Seek, Mat. 7:7, Try. I Jn. 4:1, and Prove, I Thes. 5;21 from the authoritative word of God and KNOW the Truth. John 8:32.
    It is apparent from your postings and the lack of a scriptural defense you do not believe this. Therefore, you prefer to read Luther, a man, or a commentary written by a man, to determine what truth is. I have presented in my last post " HARD EVIDENCE" for my positions that Mat. 28;18-20 prohibits by the specific the use of creeds. Your feeble attempt to defend them is one of SILENCE. GOD DOES NO AUTHORIZE BY SILENCE. Hebs, 7:14. Hebrews 8:4.
    You seem to prefer what I call Burger King Religion. You are going to have it your way. Just the way YOU ORDER IT!. God will, indeed let you have it your way. II Thes. 2:10-12, IThes. 1:6-9.

    Finally, your manner of caustic and very demeaning remarks toward those who defend truth is unbecoming of a Christian, but I guess it is the order of the day for a Lutheran.
    I must agree with Tyndale in his obervation and have this to say regarding your last response to Mat. 28:18-20. You are done!. And, I have nothing more to say to you as it pertains to BIBLICAL AUTHORITY.
     
    #61 Frank, Jul 30, 2002
  2. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    So tell me Frank, where in the Bible does it say you are allowed to use a personal library?

    What evidence? I am still waiting for hard evidence. You have offered nothing from Scripture that defends your position you have only offered your opinions on Scripture. Everything you have posted relates in no way to the use of creeds, etc. I guess questioning your evidence is being caustic.
    Personally I am at a lost with how Hebs 7:14"14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests." and Heb 8:4"4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law." Apply to silence on the topic of creeds and confessions, because the context is refering to perfection not being attainable through the Levites.
    You are making an assumption. Just because somebody doesn't prooftext every other word does not mean they do not believe in the authority of the Word of God. I haven't offered anything up because I have been picking apart your evidence, I had no need to post any other scripture. What you posted was sufficient enough to prove my point that you do not have any evidence for the prohibition of the creeds, etc. You are right that not everything that is neither expressly forbidden nor approved is good for the edification of the Church. However, I believe that creeds and confessions are benifical to the church and help to maintain a proper focus.

    AKA everybody who doesn't agree with me. Funny the same could be used in reverse, but it hasn't.

    I do use commentaries and the sort, but not until after I have spent a great deal of time with the Text itself. Commentaries can be very usefull because sometimes somebody else may notice something you missed.

    According to you I hate the Word of God. I guess taking the time to learn the original languages so that I can do more indepth study equals hating the Word of God. Spending hours examining every nuance to get the full mean of scripture is hating the Word.

    According to you we hate the word of God, so much we require our pastors to be able to read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek, just so they can be prepared to defend the truth.

    I challenged you Frank to study the confessional churches, because I hoped you would see just how wrong you are about our love for the Word of God. But I guess you wish to wallow in your ignorance, which is unfortunate because it appears you will go on spreading falsehoods about us. :(

    [ July 30, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
    #62 Chemnitz, Jul 30, 2002
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In the light of what you have just said, In the Great Commission in Mat.28:18-28: "Go ye into all the world and teach all nations," what does the word "teach" mean? Does it simply mean teach in the way the average person would take it: to teach the gospel, or does it mean "disciple?" Please give a reason for your answer.
    DHK
     
    #63 DHK, Jul 30, 2002
  4. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Chem:
    I have presented scriptural evidence from the Old and New Testament for my position that the New Testament of Christ is what one is to teach and practice. Mat. 28;18-20.
    I have presented evidence from the Old and New Testament that PROHIBITS CREEDS AS UNAUTHORIZED. I will repeat one at this time. The Bible in Hebrews 7:14 teaches that God through Moses SPAKE NOTHING concerning priests from Judah. In Hebrews 8:4 God Prohibited Christ from being a priest on earth because he repected that which he had spoken in Exodus 28-29. The Levities and Aarons sons were the lawful priests. Christ could not serve in this capacity because God by HIS COMMAND HIS WRITTEN WORD, did NOT GIVE HIS PERMISSION for this.
    God respects his written word. He will not allow that which it does not authorize by his word. Can you present to me, to borrow your phrase, hard evidence for one to use creeds. I want what God used in Hebrew 7:14 and 8;4 the word written, not that which is not written. Please BOOK, CHAPTER AND VERSE will suffice. This is what God has done. Do you have the AUTHORITY TO DO ANY DIFFERENT? If so,from whom and where did you recieve it? Hard Evidnece please. BOOK, CHAPTER, AND VERSE.
    The Bible authorizes in three and only three ways. It declares, provides examples, and implies by the totality of that which is written.
    Creeds are prohibited as per the following:
    1. They are UNAUTHORIZED. Hard evidence. Mat. 28;18-20. Col.3;17.
    2. They are DIVISIVE.Hard Evidence. I Cor. 1:10-13,Romans 16:17, Titus 3:10,11. Which one should a person follow? and how do we know which one? and by what standard do we decide?
    3. They are MAN MADE. Hard Evidence. Mat. 15:8,9. If they were not man made, I could find them in the new testament of Christ. My Evidence Mat. 28:18-20.
    4. They GLORIFY MEN. Hard Evidence. ICor. 10:30,31, I Cor. 1;10,11, Mat. 15;8,9, Isaiah 48:11. When one proclaims the Lutheran creed he proclaims one that honors a man. He proclaims that which is of numbers one, two and three. SEE ABOVE.
    5. They are ADDITIONS, SUBTRACTIONS AND GOJNG BEYOND THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. hard Evidence. rev. 22;18,19, I Cor. 4:6. If not, BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.
    Finally, someone asked the question about where are libraries authorized. Libraries, automobiles, radio and tv sermons are authorized by I Cor. 6:12. Expedients are things that carry out lawful commands. It has been demonstrated that creeds are unlawful as they do not carry out lawful commands. One may keep his Bible in a Library. He may enter the Library to study. He is authorized lawfully auhtorized to study. IITim. 2:15. He is authorized to use the word of God. II Tim. 3:16,17. The Library is an expedient,or if you prefer, that which carries out the lawful commands to study God's inspired word. IITim. 2:15, IiTim. 3:16,17 ICor. 6:12. The library is a room it allows one to act in a lawful manner. This would be tantamount to entering buildings to worship. They are expedients. Hard Evidence. Romans 16: 4,5 Acts 2:46 . The saved met on Solomn's porch of the temple and in the homes of it's members.The temple and the homes are expedients. They carry out a lawful command to assemble Hebs. 10:24-26.
     
    #64 Frank, Jul 31, 2002
  5. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Chem:
    I have spread no untruth about creeds. Hard Evidence,please.
    I asked simply for you to give me the authoratative word of God in the New Testament for one to use them. In other words, where did Jesus command them? Where did he teach them? Where did he say to observed them? You have been as SILENT as an OYSTER.
    You have the unmitigated audacity to call me names and ignorant,yet you cannot produce one scripture for your position.
    Your reasoning is fallacious. On one hand, you want " hard evidence" on the other hand," You cannot present any for your postion. Which is it you want SILENCE OR SPOKEN and WRITTEN. Which Horn of the dilemna are you going to be on. At least be consistent!!
    This is so much just drifting with the wind!!
     
    #65 Frank, Jul 31, 2002
  6. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Mt 28:18-20, Col 3:17 do not forbid the use of creeds, because creeds are formed with Christ in mind and a good creed will have Christ as the center and focus.

    A creed does not have to be written down to be a creed, you follow your own creed even though you have not written it down. So creeds are not divisive, people are.

    Uh duh, they are man made, that is why they are subject to change when it can be conclusively proven that teach unbiblical teachings.

    Again a good creed does not glorify man. Again you are speaking from ignorance, learn before you criticize.
    How do those glorify man?

    Tell me how something that does not hold the authority that the Word of God is an addition, much less a subtraction to the revealed Word of God. You are treating our use of the creeds as if we were Roman Catholics, who place tradition on equal level as Scripture. We do not place creeds and confessions on the same level of Scripture, Scripture sits much higher in level of importance.

    I argue that 1 Cor 6:12;10:23 allow for creeds because I believe they are efficacious for the church. They provide a framework that prevents the miss use of Scripture and help defend against heresy (you seem to have missed the statement I made earlier that creeds and confessions were used to defend the authority of Scripture when the Nazis and liberal theologians tried to purge Scripture from the church). The argument you make to defend use of a library can be made for creeds, just as your argument against creeds can be used against your having a library. Have you ever given thought that the formation of creeds and confessions are part of the traditions that Paul mentions in 1 Cor 11:2. I hate to use this verse because the RCC uses it to defend infalliability of their tradition, so before anybody accuses me being a papist I don't believe in the infallability of tradition. But my point is that the creeds and confession maybe part of the traditions of the church, but we also realize that being manmade, they are not perfect and that is why they are under continuous review.

    To prove that creeds and confessions are wrong you are going to have to prove beyond a doubt how they preach another Gospel Gal 1:8-9. To do that you are going to have to study the creeds and confessions themselves and not what others tell you they teach. For interests in brevity on this board I will not post the full text of the confession as I did the creeds.

    The Book of Concord which contains the complete collection of the Lutheran Confessions is located at this website. http://www.lcms.org/bookofconcord/
     
    #66 Chemnitz, Jul 31, 2002
  7. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Chem:
    I asked for Book Chapter and Verse a written word that commands or teaches creeds. You have provided NONE. I produced SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED. HEBS.7:14, HEBS.8:4.
    I see you have chosen the dilemna of Silence as authorization for CREEDS.
    The word authority in the greek means to act in accordance with the expressed will of one who has the power to command.It is Exousia in the original language. Authority in the Bible is never granted by what is not spoken. It always with the word permision is granted.
    The rest of your post is from men and your personal thoughts without evidential support. You hold the doctrines of men that as Jeremiah says is a cistern a broken cistern that holds no water. Hard Evidence. Jeremiah 2:13. The absence of scriptural support for creeds. The authority for creeds may be found in BOOK 000, CHAPTER 000 AND VERSE 000.
     
    #67 Frank, Aug 1, 2002
  8. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura New Member

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    For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. (Heb 7:14)
     
    #68 SolaScriptura, Aug 1, 2002
  9. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter New Member

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    The other one doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic either:

    [4] For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: - Hebrews 8:4 KJV
     
    #69 Dualhunter, Aug 1, 2002
  10. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura New Member

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    Actually it has a lot to do with the topic. Because Moses spake nothing of the tribe of Judah concerning priesthood, even Jesus Christ who was God Himself in the flesh could not be a priest on earth. Even Jesus recognized the authority of the Scripture's silence.

    [ August 01, 2002, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
     
    #70 SolaScriptura, Aug 1, 2002
  11. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    And this any different from your lack of specific scriptural evidence how?

    I did provide backing for my arguments but you dismiss them as my opinion, quite frankly, Frank, I am getting tired of your pharisee-like attitude. In fact, the evidence I supplied was the exact same you used to justify your use of a library which is of man, contains divisive materials, etc. So why does the evidence back your argument but not mine concerning the creeds. I have asked you to study but you insist on wallowing in your ignorance. To dismiss them as manmade like you did in your last post is a pretty lame dodge.

    [ August 01, 2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
    #71 Chemnitz, Aug 1, 2002
  12. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Chem:
    You have provided no scriptural support for creeds. You posted the creeds of men, Nicean, Apostles etc. These are not in the scriptures. If they are book, chapter, and verse. This is what you posted, not book, chapter and verse. Your statement that creeds originate in the mind of Christ is pure foolishness. There is no evidence for such only your unsubstantiated opinion.
    Furthermore, I posted scriptures for expedients.Romans 16: 4,5, Acts 2:46. You posted NONE from the Bible that support the use of creeds.
    I have posted scripture for authorization by that which is written. Col. 3:17, II Tim. 1`:13, II Thes. 2:15,. I Cor. 4:6, Rev. 22:18,19. You have posted NONE.
    Finally, Pharisees taught and practiced that which was unlawful. I teach and practice that which is authorized by Jesus Christ in his revealed word. Mat. 28:18-20.
    Pharisees practiced and taught their CREEDS much like you. They practiced and taught that which was unauthorized by the word. Mat. 15:8,9.
    Have a good one.
     
    #72 Frank, Aug 1, 2002
  13. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura New Member

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    Just a tad bit curious here: Isn't there a difference between a personal library and an ecclesiastical creed? Like for example that one is ecclesiastical and one is personal?

    [ August 01, 2002, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
     
    #73 SolaScriptura, Aug 1, 2002
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    To be more accurate, Jesus was not recognizing the authority of Scripture's silence. Silence has no authority. That is where your problem is. You are trying to make an argument out of silence, using silence for your foundation, instead of the Word.
    Jesus did not recognize silence here, he recognized the Scripture. He recognized that the Aaronic priesthood came from Aaron, and thus from the tribe of Levi, and not from the tribe of Judah. That is what the Scripture is teaching. That is not an argument from silence.
    DHK
     
    #74 DHK, Aug 1, 2002
  15. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    It has suddenly become blindingly obvious that you are not even taking the time to read people's posts, Frank. I did provide the scriptural defense for the use of creeds, which so happens to be the same defense you used to defend your use of a library. If you are going to prove that creeds and confessions are harmful to the church you are going to have to prove they teach another gospel. Trying to disprove the legitimate use of creeds and confession with an ad hominim attack by lumping the Christian creeds and confessions with the pharisees is not even a valid argument. Just because they used things wrongly does not mean we use similar things wrongly. Your arrogance and unwillingness to deal honestly with the creeds themselves is only making you look the fool. You are going to have to prove they do not proclaim the gospel.

    [ August 01, 2002, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
    #75 Chemnitz, Aug 1, 2002
  16. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura New Member

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    DHK:

    Moses said that the priests would come from the Levites, right? Ok. He didn't say "Those of the tribe of Judah CANNOT be priests. Those of the tribe of Dan CANNOT be priests..." and list all the other tribes saying "they cannot be priests." (For a quick example) Today, people always want to argue: "Why can't we use instrumental music in worship? God didn't say 'thou shalt not use instrumental music!'" No, he didn't, but he did say "sing and make melody in your heart." Just as Moses ordaining the Levites to be the tribe from which the priests came automatically excluded the other tribes, when God commands singing, doesn't that exclude playing? God does not have to say "thou shalt not play an organ. Thou shalt not blow a trumpet, etc." because he said "sing." He didn't have to say "no Judites, no Danites, etc." because he said "Levites." AND IT WAS THE AUTHORITY OF SILENCE, because Paul says "of which tribe Moses spake nothing" Heb 7:14 (Speaking nothing is silence)

    Chemnitz:

    I personally agree with the contents Apostles and Nicean creeds, but that needs some explaining. These creeds were not originally written in English, and the part about Christ descending to hell in the original contained the word hades which is not the hell of eternal torment - that hell is gehenna. One problem I see with these creeds today is that the translation of hades to hell has caused confusion, so much so that if a person were to tell me "I believe in these creeds" I still wouldn't know what they believed! I suppose the same is true of the King James translation though. How much trouble would we be spared from if translators would be consistent?

    [ August 01, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
     
    #76 SolaScriptura, Aug 1, 2002
  17. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong but the organ didn't exist at the time Scripture was written. Also the palms were set to instrumental music. If you want to get technical and legalistic, what is singing? As somebody with a background in music I know there are many different modes of singing so which one is the "biblical" mode of singing. This idea that silence=forbidden has got to be the stupidest argument I have ever heard. The only things that the Scripture is silent about that should be forbidden are those that teach another Gospel or practices that are not Christ centered.
     
    #77 Chemnitz, Aug 1, 2002
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Exodus 28:42-43
    41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
    42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
    43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

    "It shall be a statute forever unto HIM, aand HIS SEED after him." This is not an argument from silence, but from Scripture. Not just anyone could become a priest.
    DHK
     
    #78 DHK, Aug 1, 2002
  19. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura New Member

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    Allowing Christ to be a priest on earth would be Christ centered, but even that was forbidden because "it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood."

    If you want to call something that even Jesus Himself recognized stupid, that's your business.

    Not quite sure, but if it didn't then the KJV must have translated Job 21:12 incorrectly.

    Under the Old Testament they used instrumental music to praise God. They also had tithing, animal sacrifices, church inflicted death penalty, Sabbath keeping, etc. The New Testament is a completely new system:

    (Heb 7:12) "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." -- I think this idea of Jesus' priesthood is what's really confusing everyone. Everything we've been discussing kind of goes back to it somehow!

    "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Col 3:16

    "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" Eph 5:19

    That's all I could find.
     
    #79 SolaScriptura, Aug 1, 2002
  20. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura New Member

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    DHK:

    Have you not noticed that the apostle Paul is the one who said it was an argument from silence? He said "...Moses spake nothing concerning..." -- It is an argument from silence because he did not list all 11 remaining tribes and say "people from this tribe cannot be priests." Nod doubt, some people today would say "God didn't say 'Benjamites shall not be priests' so lets make some Benjamite priests.'" In fact, didn't some of the kings (at least one) do just that?
     
    #80 SolaScriptura, Aug 1, 2002
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