Can Christians OVERTHROW an EVIL government?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ROBERTGUWAPO, Aug 15, 2004.

  1. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Submit to authority says the Book of Romans, but what if the government is immoral and evil, such as the Hitler regime?

    Can we support or join an UPRISING?
     
  2. Rooster

    Rooster
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exodus 15:3 (KJV) The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.
    Numbers 10:9 (KJV) And if you go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.
    Psalms 18:34 (KJV) he teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by my arms.
    Proverbs 20:18 (KJV) Every pourpose is established by council: and with good avise make war.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not sure what relevance those verses have, but the answer is no. The NT church was birthed under an immoral and evil government besides which the Hitler regime would look like a SS picnic. The appropriate response is submit to government and preach the gospel.
     
  4. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Pastor Larry,

    ...even if governments send Christians straight to the concentration camps just like in WW2?

    Robert
     
  5. Eltrow

    Eltrow
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Q: Does God hate rebellion?
     
  6. Eltrow

    Eltrow
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ro 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Ro 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    Ro 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

    Even Hitler was ordained by God to execute His judgement on evil.
     
  7. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Eltrow,

    But the verses you quoted say that rulers are not a terror to good works but to evil. But what if the citizens do that which is good but get repaid evil by the rulers?

    What if a modern-day Hitler occupies the White House? Wouldn't you Americans unite to get him out? ;)

    Robert
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, God gave no qualifiers on it. Paul himself was subject to that, as was John, and others. That was nothing new for the early church. And they are told to submit, not to overthrow. It is part of the radical part of Christianity, the humility of it that we so often ignore in our modern pride.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christ addressed that in the gospels.

    Yes, by legal means; not by overthrow.
     
  10. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, God gave no qualifiers on it. Paul himself was subject to that, as was John, and others. That was nothing new for the early church. And they are told to submit, not to overthrow. It is part of the radical part of Christianity, the humility of it that we so often ignore in our modern pride. </font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Larry,

    Should we just grin and bear it? The Roman conquerors were like Power Puff girls as compared to the Nazis--cruel invaders, but benevolent conquerors....

    Robert
     
  11. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are no NT scripture telling us to do such. Can we, no. Should we, no. The physical world you see is only a symptom of the real disease. The bible gives no instructions to christian on how to strainghten out the physical world(the symptom), but rather gives us instructions on treating the disease(taking Jesus to people are living without Him).
     
  12. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, the war for independence that founded this nation is certainly one I would have supported. Also, the War for Southern Independence is another war for independence that I would have supported.

    Also there are lots of Christians on this board who supported overthrowing the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq.
     
  13. Eltrow

    Eltrow
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    How do we as believers change the circumstances of our nation? I believe 2Ch 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." is still applicable for today. I see 4 factors that apply. Where is there a humble spirit in America? I see a lot of pride in America. Are seeking the God of heaven or the god we have invented in our own imaginations? In most churches, not just baptist, you can rally the people around a meal but just ask how many will come and fast and pray see what you get. Turn from our wicked ways -- what a joke.

    1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;

    1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
     
  14. Eltrow

    Eltrow
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, the war for independence that founded this nation is certainly one I would have supported. Also, the War for Southern Independence is another war for independence that I would have supported.

    Also there are lots of Christians on this board who supported overthrowing the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Just because we support something does that make it right?
     
  15. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christ addressed that in the gospels.

    Yes, by legal means; not by overthrow.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Larry,

    Are you saying that the American Revolution two hundred years ago which was led by Christians was a mistake? There won't be any U.S. of A. if righteous members of the colony did not take arms. :D

    Robert
     
  16. Eltrow

    Eltrow
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again what does God think of rebellion.
     
  17. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, the war for independence that founded this nation is certainly one I would have supported. Also, the War for Southern Independence is another war for independence that I would have supported.

    Also there are lots of Christians on this board who supported overthrowing the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Just because we support something does that make it right?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Eltrow,

    The American Revolution is not right? [​IMG]

    Robert
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    perhaps a little history is in order. The colosseum with its lions, the human torches, the pedophilia, etc, were not found in Nazi Germany. The Nazi's were bad, but the Romans were worse. But the point remains that the Bible places no qualifications on it, depending on the government.

    I have siad before that I am conflicted about that, but as of now, I could not in good conscience join that. BUt in God's providence, that is a hypothetical we are not facing.
     
  19. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    I still agree wtih Pastor Larry. We can give all of the historical reasons we want, but it is hard to argue with Romans 13 biblically .
     
  20. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Larry,

    A little history here...The Germans were badder in terms of homosexuality and pedophilia. The original core members of the SS and the SA were hardcore homosexuals who preyed on boys.

    The Nazis didn't have coliseums, but they sure had lotsa concentration camps. In terms of numbers, did the Romans systematically kill six million Jews?

    Robert
     

Share This Page

Loading...