Can God-Given Faith be Defective?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Brother George Zeller wrote and gave me permission to post the following at my blog. I want to share with BB readers Zeller's penetrating review of one of John MacArthur's Lordship views that fails the test of Scripture.

    For links to additional documentation of Lordship Salvation’s doctrinal errors, see the original posting at my blog of Can God-Given Faith be Defective?

    I especially encourage you to read Zeller’s article, John MacArthur’s Position on the Lordship of Christ. In that article Zeller discloses and examines some of MacArthur’s most serious doctrinal missteps.

    Or you can view over three dozen articles that deal with various aspects of Lordship Salvation’s departure from the biblical plan of salvation. All articles are thoroughly documented from the writings of various Lordship Salvation advocates, primarily the best known most prolific Lordship apologist of them all, Dr. John MacArthur.


    LM
     
  2. Shortandy

    Shortandy
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    Question

    The only thing I find myself wondering as I read the thoughts above is if the comparison being made is apples to oranges. MacArthur seems to be speaking in terms of eternal security as he is writing about a "defective faith" while the author of the post seems to think of "defective" as falling short. But there is a difference in falling short and loosing the faith. Maybe I am off here but that is what I see as I read the post.

    I just hit 100 post!!!
     
  3. canadyjd

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    When MacArthur speaks of faith being "defective", he is refering to Lordship.

    He does not believe a new believer will never sin. He does not believe a new believer will have instantaneous Spiritual maturity. He does not believe that every true believer will have "perfect" faith.

    He is saying genuine faith will not lack commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord of your life, and genuine faith will always result in a desire to follow Jesus as His disciple. Genuine faith will not be defective in the aspect of Lordship.

    The characterization of MacArthur's comments are not accurate, which is nothing new.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  4. Shortandy

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    If that is his position then I would agree. He would not be able to back that up with a Bible. Everytime we sin we are not being submissive to the Lordship of Christ for everytime we sin or fall short we are taking over and living life the way we want.
     
  5. Lou Martuneac

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    The mantra of the MacArthur/Lordship apologists is amusing and sad.

    Even when MacArthur is quoted directly and in context from his own books and sermons, which George Zeller has done, according to the MacArthur/Lordship apologists even what MacArthur says is a mischaracterization of what he (MacArthur) says.

    "Me thinks he doth protest too much."


    LM
     
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    Me thinks he is ignorant of the contents of MacArthur's books and/or is intellectually dishonest in his presentation of MacArthur's views.:smilewinkgrin:

    peace to you:praying:
     
  7. Rippon

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    Lou, I think you have too much time on your hands. How about devoting yourself to unveiling real heretics? You are wasting your time trying to bring down a true man of God. John MacArthur is the Dr.Lloyd-Jones of our time. I advise you to spend your energies on something more constructive and edifying.
     
  8. JustChristian

    JustChristian
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    Too many professing Christians today think they can mouth a few words and participate in a few ceremonies and they will be saved. An objective reading of the New Testament clearly shows that nothing could be further from the truth. Christ required that people be transformed by the Holy Spirit into a new person (born again). Where is that truth shown in the theology of those who attack MacArthur? Their's is a gospel without commitment, without any real meaning in their lives.

    Jesus said that we must count the cost before becoming a disciple of His. What is the cost of this hollow alternative? Nothing. A person who accepts this "faith" has committed nothing and will therefore receive nothing in return.

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
     
  9. Lou Martuneac

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    George Zeller reiterates

    Alerting believers to the egregious doctrinal errors of Lordship Salvation regardless of the advocate is vital! The spread of Lordship Salvation has been insidious. Many are coming to recognize LS when they encounter it, realizing it is a works based, non-saving message that frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21) and will biblically resist its spread into evangelical churches and fellowships.

    I want to share with BB readers once again George Zeller's penetrating review of one of John MacArthur's Lordship views that fails the test of Scripture.

     
    #9 Lou Martuneac, Jul 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2008
  10. pinoybaptist

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    And I would second that motion. While Dr. L.M. is mustering forces against a non-heretic, the likes of TD Jakes and Benny Hill and company are out there deceiving many.
    Or is bringing down Mc'Arthur a laurel on one's educational accomplishment, much as bringing down an equally high ranking karate-ka is honored among karate-kas ?
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    And I would second that motion. While Dr. L.M. is mustering forces against a non-heretic, the likes of TD Jakes and Benny Hill and company are out there deceiving many.
    Or is bringing down Mc'Arthur a laurel on one's educational accomplishment, much as bringing down an equally high ranking karate-ka is honored among karate-kas ?
     
  12. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    To All:

    While appreciate the concern over the gross errors of the Benny Hinn's of this world, my particular concern and burden is over the doctrinal errors coming from men from within the body of Christ. Paul admonished the Ephesians elders to watch for the because it would come from even among our own.

    LS is just such a dangerous and "perverse" doctrine. It is especially dangerous because it originated and is being propagated by men, like MacArthur, who are otherwise sound in certain other areas of their teaching. Because of this built in trust many do not suspect, and therefore, do not read MacArthur's LS apologetics carefully and with discernment. I can take any one of his three editions of The Gospel According to Jesus and agree with much that is contained. However, there are elements that are clearly antithetical to Scripture that turn the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith into a man-centered, works based message. It is there! It is, however, often couched in terms that appear orthodox, it is rooted in the extra-biblical presuppositions of Calvinism, and that makes it difficult for some to detect.

    It is unfortunate that some come to these discussions determined to turn the debate in a personality clash where there is none.

    Lordship Salvation is a false, non-saving message that frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21). Lordship Salvation conditions the reception of eternal life on the lost man making an upfront commitment, a promise to perform the "good works" (Eph. 2:10) that should be the result of a genuine, born again disciple of Christ. That is works!


    LM
     
  13. Rippon

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    All Scripture From TNIV

    It's beginning to sound like a personal vendetta that you have against John MacArthur,Lou.No matter how you try to portray it otherwise.

    You have the nerve to cast him as a savage wolf who wants to tear up the flock!

    Acts 20:29-30 :"I know that after I leave,savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number some will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."

    To apply this passage to the ministry of John MacArthur is both sinful and shameful of you.
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    If one goes to that site of his, one would see how much he is enamored by MacArthur.

    This is his "labels list" that I clipped going down the side of his page. The number is to show how often the labels have stories linked to that label.

    Notice even Calvinism a hot debate topic only has 3 links. Notice LS is 2nd with 37 links. The Apostles however only has 1 link. Holy Spirit has 2 links while MacArthur has 26 and Grace Evangelical Society has 27.

    "Obedience" has 1.. link while Crossless Gospel 45

    Antonio da Rosa (24)
    Apostles (1)
    Barter System (2)
    Bob Topartzer (2)
    Bob Wilkin (21)
    Calvinism (3)
    Charles Ryrie (3)
    Charlie Bing (4)
    Christ Under Siege (3)
    Christian Rock (2)
    Commitment (9)
    Crossless Gospel (45)
    Crossless Series at Sharper Iron (1)
    Deity of Christ (15)
    Dennis Rokser (7)
    Discipleship (10)
    Easter (2)
    Easy Believism (5)
    Ecumenism (1)
    Evaluation of Crossless Theology (8)
    Exchange (4)
    False Dilemma (2)
    False Gospel (2)
    False Paradigms (2)
    Fred Lybrand (4)
    Free Grace (9)
    Free Grace Alliance (14)
    George Zeller (5)
    Grace Conference (9)
    Grace Evangelical Society (27)
    Heart to Heart Series (8)
    Holy Spirit (2)
    IFCA (2)
    Issue of Incongruity (6)
    J. B. Hixson (4)
    Jeremy Myers (8)
    Jim Johnson (12)
    John Brown (1)
    John MacArthur (26)
    John Piper (1)
    Kevin Bauder (1)
    L. S. Chafer (2)
    Lance Ketchum (2)
    Legalism (1)
    Lordship Salvation (37)
    Man-Centered Message (2)
    Mental Assent Only (1)
    Mike Harding (6)
    Missions (2)
    Mormonism (7)
    Nathan Busenitz (13)
    New Evangelicalism (2)
    Nicodemus (1)
    Northland Baptist Bible College (1)
    Obedience (1)
    Open Challenge (3)
    Ordo Salutis (1)
    Phil Johnson (4)
    Plagiarism (8)
    Pulpit Magazine (6)
    Purpose Driven (5)
    ReDefined FG Theology (2)
    Regeneration (5)
    Repentance (14)
    Resolved Conference (1)
    Revised Version (2)
    Rich Young Ruler (2)
    Rick Warren (5)
    Rocky Mountain Bible College (4)
    Romans 16 (8)
    Ryrie (1)
    Saving Faith (8)
    Separation (15)
    Sermon on the Mount (2)
    Sharper Iron (9)
    Spurgeon (3)
    Straw Man (2)
    Submission (3)
    Surrender (6)
    Technical Meaning of the Gospel (9)
    Tim Challies (1)
    Tom Stegall (4)
    Unanswered Question (1)
    Voice of the Evangelists (2)
    Willow Creek (2)
    Zane Hodges (33)
    Zichterman (2)



    Thanks Lou. God is lucky to have you.
     
  15. canadyjd

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    Please notice that Lou Martuneac continues to smear John MacArthur with the same old smear that has been proven to be false by Lou Martuneac's own words.

    Lou Martuneac continues to refuse to address his own contradictions to his central argument.

    Lou Martuneac cannot accurately state the context of quotes which he repeatedly uses to smear MacArthur, even though he would have everyone believe he is an expert on what MacArthur believes and teaches.

    Lou Martuneac never addresses scripture in depth as John MacArthur does, even though he presents himself as the final authority of what doctrines are biblical and unbiblical.

    Lou Martuneac can only make outrageous, slanderous attacks on John MacArthur, and anyone who dares to disagree with Lou Martuneac.

    Lou Martuneac then has the audacity to say that its too bad this has become a clash of personalities.

    Lou Martuneac can not be taken seriously as a scholar, writer, blogger, or contributor to the BB

    peace to you:praying:
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    Notice this is what Lou says.

    However notice the facts..

    MacArthur on Eph 2:10
    Lou...you have been shown once again that you mislead. Its time to face up to what you are.
     
  17. JDale

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    As a Reformation Arminian, I can find many things to disagree with John MacArthur on. This is NOT one of them. John MacArthur here is, as canandyjd [and others] have said, taken out of context, and his view mischaracterized.

    MacArthur is emphasizing the fact that true saving faith is committed to following Christ -- despite failures, stumblings, errors, and yes, sins. When I first read "The Gospel According to Jesus" many years ago, I found myself agreeing with much of what MacArthur said --not ALL, and not always with his choice of terms -- but he still captures much of what following Christ is.

    It is not merely a "decision," it is DISCIPLESHIP. True faith develops disciples -- it doesn't END with a "decision," that is just the beginning!

    I would find a conversation with MacArthur intriguing on the one point where I think he and I might diverge doctrinally. Faith -- givien by God as a gift no doubt -- is the stewardship of that one to whom it is bestowed. MacArthur would conclude that this faith is granted by an irresistible grace and therefore could never "fail" in the ultimate sense -- that is, faith offers no choice, just certain, imposed "faith." RA's would conclude that faith is given by God in His prevenient grace, thus enabling man to believe, but allowing for man to choose himself whether he ultimately believes. Only then can faith really BE faith, rather than mere robotic determinism. But that is a discussion we have had before, and should be reserved for another thread. Forgive my digression...

    One concluding thought -- and I think most will agree with me on this -- most of the so-called "failures" of faith that I have seen in over 2 decades of ministry aren't due to defective faith -- or even apostasy [falling away from] faith. It is most often because those who fail have NEVER truly believed on Christ and committed their entire life and being to Him. That's not a faith failure, it is a failure to have true,Biblical faith. I think that was what MacArthur was getting at here.

    JDale
     
  18. TCGreek

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    Amen a million times!
     
  19. TCGreek

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    As you said, "Lou has too much time on his hands."

    A Todd Bentley is dividing the church.
     
  20. Lou Martuneac

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    Rippon:

    You posted a foolish comment.

    I posted Acts 20:28-31. You will note that I put verse 30 in bold, "Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

    And I made the application of that verse to the teaching of MacArthur or any man that is introducing Lordship Salvation (and the Hodges. Wilkin, GES Crossless gospel) into evangelical churches and fellowships.

    IMO, you let your emotions get in the way of careful reading and better judgment.


    LM
     

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